To think we are in a relationship?

[Beingabout]

We are in our late 30s. We’ve been friends since we were teenagers. We had several casual flings with each other throughout our 20s. About six years ago we started seeing each other more often, but he didn’t want a relationship.

Five years ago I met someone else, and given the stance of not wanting a relationship, I went out with him and ended up in a relationship with him. I gave the first man every opportunity to stop it but he didn’t. Anyway, we broke up after a few months and the first man and I ended up back in touch. I made it clear at this point that I was only interested in being back in touch if we weren’t going to be seeing anyone else, which he agreed to.

Since then we’ve become closer and closer. I trust that he’s not, and is not interested in, seeing anyone else. He's supportive and caring (which it’s fair to say he wasn’t in our 20s). He’s thoughtful and kind. We go on holiday together and exchange Christmas and birthday presents. I have started to refer to him as my boyfriend, which he knows about and doesn’t seem bothered about.

He woukd still say we’re not in a relationship. I can’t see how this isn’t a relationship?

The difference is you would be validated in your pain and confusion because your family, friends, his family and friends (however much they might not want to), and even society itself, would all be in agreement with you that he had treated you appallingly.

Whereas when he does it to you, everyone will wonder why you are so upset, because he was always clear it wasn't a relationship. You will feel as crazy as he will make you out to be.

He’s not supportive of anything you want to do though as he won’t even give you a straight answer to the very simple question ‘what’s the difference between what we are and what a relationship is?’ as you’ve said you’ve asked him, he knows it’s important to you, and he ‘just doesn’t really answer’. That’s not loving and kind of him. Or supportive.

Absolutely.
I honestly have more of a visceral repulsion towards 'lets not put a label on it' men than any other type of man (with the exception of abusive men who are, of course, the lowest of the low).

They're manipulative feckers or cowardly menchildren. To be honest it's the menchildren aspect that repulses me.

Don't understand why OP talks about 'cheating' - it is impossible for him to cheat if he doesn't see himself as being in a relationship (!) Simple as that.
No facing the music with this sneaky fecker. No bollocking from Mummy for him.

I guess I've posted so much on this thread as I've had a guy try this on me. Luckily, my repulsion outweighed my desire for him.
(he wanted us to move in together but he still wanted us NOT to be seen as a couple! They mess with your head they really do.)

Maybe when the rose-tinted specs come off, OP will feel the same.
At least she won't have had his children.

Agree. It's like the "marriage is just a piece of paper" men (and some women). No it isn't, it's a legal contract that gives rights and responsibilities to those involved. If you don't want to get married, fine, own it, just don't try to weasel out of it by pretending marriage doesn't mean anything.

I still can't work out whether this is actually supposed to be a philosophical musing or rooted in insecurity.

You seem to be claiming that it is a philosophical musing (just asking what difference a label makes), whereas your responses seem to be rooted more in insecurity (defensive).

This is because, in philosophical musings, people generally posit an idea to explore and engage with differing positions/beliefs. But you are not doing that.

You claim to have posted the thread on a chat forum to discuss it but you're not actually engaging with what anyone else says - there is no discussion. You've tried defensiveness, low level insults and defiance. None of which is actual engagement. So you're not actually discussing it yourself.

If you had, your responses would have been more circumspect and you might even have challenged and explored some of your own beliefs or expectations, even if you ultimately didn't change them. It could even have led other people to challenge theirs.

It could have been an interesting conversation.

OP you seem to want confirmation that you're in a relationship and disagree with anyone who says you're not. If someone else were to ask you out, you would probably say "I'm seeing someone" and hopefully he would say the same. As an older woman who decided to remain single from the age of 45 I can only say that as long as you are both happy just crack on. You don't need to call what you have anything, you're actually in a good situation if you both want the same things.

I don’t get why she wrote the post to begin with. Because any interpretation that doesn’t fit the response she wants is incorrect. He says you’re not in a relationship and you say we are though & we’re meant to be able psycho analysis a man we don’t know about a relationship we’ve never observed and say yeah your definitely in a relationship. The truth is you’re definitely in some kind of relationship, but no one can definitely say if he feels the same or has he issues with the word, either way this man is nearly 40 & assuming you don’t live together I’m taking a guess at him wanting to keep the status quo as it is. So aslong as he says this isn’t a relationship you can remain living separately. So the question is where do you want to be in 5 years time.

What a weird thread.

Brilliant, @LogFireBurning

Yes, you're right op.

It's the best thing in the world not knowing whether you're in a relatonship or not.

Don't ask him again.

Sorted.

I appreciate that you're being sarcastic but all the same I know from experience how this guy is messing with her head.

I was in a 'no label' situationship where the guy wanted us to move in together but didn't want us to be a couple. I said no. It is truly mind-bending.

I don't care what OP says: to even start a thread about this indicates it's getting to her. And that is totally understandable. Her friends may feed her bullshit that 'of course'they're a couple but strangers on Internet won't.

I do have sympathy as I've been there but, logically, if someone says they're not in a relationship with you they're simply not: end of f-ing story nothing - to see-here- move- along BUT they're doing coupley things with you then the cognitive dissonance is huge.

Men like her 'friend' are cowardly pieces of shit and deeply manipulative as a result of that cowardice.
Also not usually successful with women either, funnily enough, because if they were, they'd have no need for the fwb charade as they've lots of options.

Usually coddled mummy's boys, too, who take no risks in life. I expect she's the strong, confident one in this set-up.

Personally I'd never again get into a ' no label' arrangement. I don't like casual sex but if I did I'd choose clear cut situations like so- called booty calls or one night stands.
From a mental health perspective, they're safer.

This is such a bizarre thread. You're not "musing" at all. You are asking strangers for confirmation that you're in a relationship and then getting defensive when they quite rightly point out that
A.) Most people in relationships don't have a need to ask
And
B.) you can't be in a relationship with someone without their consent.
Even if every single person on this thread said "you're absolutely right, OP that sounds like a relationship to me!" it would make not one jot of difference because the person whose opinion actually matters in this scenario does not consider himself to be in a relationship with you.

Agreed.
When someone shows you what they are-believe them.

I tied myself in knots asking a guy who I was sleeping with regularly and doing coupley things 'why don't we become a couple?' He was 'happy' with the way things 'were'.

In retrospect I realise that labelling me as his girlfriend was no big deal (I wasn't asking for cohabitation, mortgage, marriage or kids) but he wouldn't even do that. Couldn't commit to something that could be ended in a minute.

Yet he'd called other women from his past girlfriend. Quick to apply the label of girlfriend to women he really liked. Quick to give up sexual options (at least temporarily) and take on the expectations of couplehood with them.

It's so demoralising. You find yourself diminishing your needs to keep them happy.
My last post on this thread as I'm dredging up past hurts but, OP if you're still reading, please wise up.

The OP ain’t coming back.

1. How would you feel of you found out he'd slept with other women?

1. Do you realise not everyone can actually 'get sex', so, the fact he hasn't been unfaithful, may not be through choice?

1. If he met the 'love of his life', how would you feel?

1. Men have a better sexual experience with someone who's 'in love' with them rather than someone who is not; even if the feeling is not mutual.