To be the most shocked about the women possibly involved in it all

[Whereareallthegoodpeople]

With Epstein.

Men, i’m pretty much sick of at this point in my late 40’s, adore my Ddad and Dh is one of the good ones, but thinking back to being young and leering men and uncomfortable and scary situations.
But, rumours of women possibly being involved-obviously vile GM, but a supposed supermodel, JE’s personal assistants and women that seemed to work for him, reports of possibly owning adoption agencies etc. If all true, how on earth could women see children and young girls being abused and hurt and actively make that happen?? Where were all the safe people, why did no one notice and say or do anything?

Definitely not? I think you overestimate yourself. You can afford to be so theoretically superior because you have never really been in a situation to test it. People, including you, are capable of terrible, terrible things, given the right circumstances - and I would imagine they all, at one time, would also have said they definitely couldn't be.

I think that's a bit harsh : it's not just that we're weaker, we're also generally higher empathy on average, plus less inclined for both biological & social reasons to be physically or sexual violent (on average).

I agree lots of women have done awful things throughout history, though.

Slightly off at a tangent here but I always remember growing up and every now and then there would be something on the news about Hindley and Brady, probably because they will still searching for the victims back then.

I always felt that the focus was always more in her and how evil she was with that horrible photograph you always saw, and Brady seemed to be very much an afterthought. I never understood it, but I assumed that as he was completely insane and she was female and therefore meant to be not capable of such evil, that somehow she was assigned more of the blame while he was left in the background.

No nothing surprises me. There have been many evil and sick abusive women over time these people somehow find each other it seems. Maybe there is a secret handshake that says ' I am a twisted and sick person'?? They tend to cluster. For validy, for safety, who knows.

You are being unreasonable to be shocked.

While patriarchy and misogyny are created by men, to benefit men, they are supported by women who have internalised them and either play by the rules of the game to elevate their own position, or because they truly believe them. Quite often those women are amongst the loudest supporters of misogyny.

Women are our own second-biggest enemy, so eager to show our allegiance to a man, perhaps to assure our own protection. If we just follow the rules then we'll be safe (except that's an illusion).

It's like 1984: ‘Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia! I don’t care what you do to her. Tear her face off, strip her to the bones. Not me! Julia! Not me!’

I think the less violent thing was accounted for by the less strong comments. We do not seem nearly as driven by sexual desires, I agree. But none of the stuff these women did seems to have been driven by violence or sexual desires. They seemed to get money, connections and access to elite society.

Women tend to be more empathic, but that means they are better at reading and reflecting emotions - which probably makes them better at this type of work. And generally affective and compassionate empathy is concentrated on people we think of as like ourselves. But in these sorts of situations the victims are generally Othered already and so less likely to elicit these reactions.

But I’m not saying women are just as bad as men, simply that women aren’t angels and it’s kind of infantilizing to think of women as being monolithic in their behaviour to the extent you are surprised that some are involved.

What I do find infuriating, though also not surprising, is that the only person doing crime for any of this so far is a woman.

Great post, I agree with this.

Well, just look at Trump’s staff now. Women working for him in plain sight, even knowing what we all know.

So far !!

This reminds me of a quote by Primo Levi from The Drowned and the Saved, about prisoners in the 'grey zone' in the concentration camps, those who were forced to work in the crematoria :
'Nyszli (a Jewish doctor forced to assist Mengele) attended a soccer game between the SS and the SK {Sonderkommando) , that is to say, between a group representing the SS on guard at the crematorium and a group representing the Special Squad.
Nothing of this kind ever took place, nor would it have been conceivable, with other categories of prisoners; but with them, with the "crematorium ravens," the SS could enter the field on an equal footing, or almost. Behind this armistice one hears satanic laughter: it is consummated, we have succeeded, you no longer are the other race, the antirace, the prime enemy of the millennial Reich; you are no longer the people who reject idols. We have embraced you, corrupted you, dragged you to the bottom with us. You are like us, you proud people: dirtied with your own blood, as we are. You too, like us and like Cain, have killed the brother. Come, we can play together.'

Obviously some of the stuff he says here applies specifically to Auschwitz, but I think some can be applied to any group where some of the persecuted are also used to pepetrate atrocities.

Have name changed
I don't think I'm a psychopath well I hope not but I might be, but people are weak and can be easily flattered & if you know what buttons to press you can have them eating out of your hand.
You make them feel special & so good about themselves by asking them for little favours & in return doing them bigger favours so they do you bigger favours.
They become your puppets & your dolls & yes you might like them too but it makes you feel special too to manipulate them & rather entertaining
Though it's rather boring too.

I try not to do it & if I do, I try to do it for the good of humanity as bizarrely I get more of a thrill about doing good as doing bad is too easy.

I am on the autistic spectrum but am I also a psychopath? A moral psychopath? But that's surely absurd?

I would argue that such types as you discuss are creating their own narrative about other peoples' motivations. Ultimately they eould be going down their own rabbit hole. Nobody can truly know what is in another person's head.

That's certainly true @Daygloboo as nobody does know what actually does go on in other peoples heads

I agree I do find the involvement of women more shocking and GM’s involvement (a posh English woman) apparently made it feel safe for girls like VG to get involved. GM could apparently‘sniff out’ vulnerable girls who’d been previously abused.

The justification for privileged women’s involvement (whether GM or Queen Elizabeth II in paying £m to hush up the abuse) comes from seeing the victims as ‘other’. GM described them as trash. The involvement of the victims who then went on to become JE’s enablers once they became’too old’ for JE’s tastes, I think comes from their being groomed and trapped in that awful world.

Aren't some named escorts, who procured women for him? Naomi Campbell, Donna Air etc? It was all about money and moving in these weird circles. I cant imagine any knew of the darker stuff?

@Whereareallthegoodpeople I am someone who always believed in the idea of a village/women supporting each other. But I know of two women, one who knowingly married a paedophile, and one who was secretly recorded being verbally abusive to a child. Both have very important jobs, seem very normal to anyone who meets them. Both still blame the victims. Made me think you can never really know people.

Women can be just as greedy and ruthless as men in pursuit of the things they want, like money and power. It's a bit simplistic to think all women are naturally good and kind unless they've been "damaged" in some way by men - groomed, abused, manipulated.

As above a lot of it is motivated by money & status, either achieving that or maintaining it. Women can be just as greedy as men.

From what I can see, a lot of people were terrified of him. Women in particular are brought up to please, not rock the boat. I imagine a lot of it was a case of don’t fuck with him, he’s dangerous. I think a lot of men
and women felt that way about him.

Sorry to read this. I can only imagine how difficult it would have been to live through something like that.

It is what I’ve always thought. You’re not acting in a vacuum. In situations of war, it becomes about survival and people find themselves doing what would previously have been unthinkable. The ‘Eat or be eaten’ (or run!) scenario.

I think the Epstein situation is different, though. Lots of people were involved but many more people weren’t, so you could leave without walking into a war zone. I agree you’d have to be a particular type of person to get caught up in it - mercenary, avaricious, capable of compartmentalising people into those who matter and those who don’t to name but a few.

I do think it’s interesting that some of his enablers were very high up in the corporate world, like that lawyer working for Goldman Sachs. I’ve seen dreadful things done in workplaces and I do wonder if the skills needed to most ruthlessly climb the greasy pole are transferable here - sycophancy, not rocking the boat, closing ranks to protect an organisation, the ability to disassociate from negative outcomes, even where those impacted are vulnerable and blameless. I’m thinking of the post office scandal, for example (not suggesting anyone there was involved with Epstein). If I recall correctly, their lead counsel decamped to Australia and refused to attend the inquiry…

I read a quote from VG's book today which said that the victims reported, it was investigated and in the end they were told nothing more could be done and the only way to make JE pay was to get $$ from him. So that is why so many victims went down the path of seeking $$ from JE, DJT and others. And of course with $$ payouts, NDAs had to be signed, so many people were kept silent.

Women fawn all over rich and powerful men 🫤

I think Gislaine was in thrall to Epstein. They had formerly been lovers, I beleive

Women can be bad too you know. It’s not always men

Totally agree. Anyone who thinks all women are delicate little flowers and always the victim is being very naive. In my 65 years I have met plenty of females who I would give a very wide berth to