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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be the most shocked about the women possibly involved in it all

265 replies

Whereareallthegoodpeople · 20/02/2026 22:49

With Epstein.

Men, i’m pretty much sick of at this point in my late 40’s, adore my Ddad and Dh is one of the good ones, but thinking back to being young and leering men and uncomfortable and scary situations.
But, rumours of women possibly being involved-obviously vile GM, but a supposed supermodel, JE’s personal assistants and women that seemed to work for him, reports of possibly owning adoption agencies etc. If all true, how on earth could women see children and young girls being abused and hurt and actively make that happen?? Where were all the safe people, why did no one notice and say or do anything?

OP posts:
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Carla786 · 22/02/2026 18:33

It should be remembered that the setup of wealthy men sexually abusing poor, vulnerable young women is unfortunately as old as the hills. Slave women in Rome, gypsy slave women in Romania (gypsies were slaves there until mid-19th century), serf women in Russia, slave women in US, domestic servants & young dancers/actresses across Europe, etc etc

What's new in Epstein's case is that this was at least supposed to be seen as wrong in the 2000s etc, so he was doing it secretly via trafficking networks. But what was actually going on is sadly a common pattern among powerful men (some, not all)

museumum · 22/02/2026 18:40

Im only half way through VG’s book but so far the girls involved have been teenagers who are very vulnerable and have been making their own way in the world for a time due to familial neglect or abuse. They were absolutely abused by JE and GM but they could have been seen to be making their own decision to be there, it was a case of them already being in a desperate situation. Offered a way to make some money, like so so many who enter prostitution around the world. Tbh it reminds me a lot of Hugh Hefner and the playboy mansion - how the hell was that acceptable?!? VG was 17 when most of the Epstein stuff happened but would it have been ok if she were 18?

HoskinsChoice · 22/02/2026 18:56

NeelyOHara · 22/02/2026 08:13

This is rather downplaying things isn’t it? Plenty of very young children are mentioned in the files, which no one on here seems to want to read or fact check against at all, preferring to theorise which is…..odd.

It was a simple response to someone implying his victims were all children. A lot weren't. It's not up or downplaying. It's just fact.

Carla786 · 22/02/2026 19:04

museumum · 22/02/2026 18:40

Im only half way through VG’s book but so far the girls involved have been teenagers who are very vulnerable and have been making their own way in the world for a time due to familial neglect or abuse. They were absolutely abused by JE and GM but they could have been seen to be making their own decision to be there, it was a case of them already being in a desperate situation. Offered a way to make some money, like so so many who enter prostitution around the world. Tbh it reminds me a lot of Hugh Hefner and the playboy mansion - how the hell was that acceptable?!? VG was 17 when most of the Epstein stuff happened but would it have been ok if she were 18?

Yes, were all the Playboy women happy to be in the mansion? The 70s was a very disturbing time re media attitudes to women (Brooke Shields & Jodie Foster were sexualised as preteens in a way that seems unbelievable now, to name just two).

Whereareallthegoodpeople · 22/02/2026 19:06

HoskinsChoice · 22/02/2026 18:56

It was a simple response to someone implying his victims were all children. A lot weren't. It's not up or downplaying. It's just fact.

A lot were though too…and we need to focus on that more and bring attention to it. For the grown women involved it is obviously horrific too, but children is a whole other level.

OP posts:
HoskinsChoice · 22/02/2026 19:12

InterIgnis · 22/02/2026 18:09

A lot of what is published is from callers to an anonymous tip line, and those (especially high profile ones) can and do attract trolls, bad actors, and the mentally ill.

Agree. This is a huge problem. There was a recent case of a couple of women stalking the McCann's and one of them claiming to be Madeleine. Not sure whether they fell into the mentally ill or evil categories (or both!). But they had an insta page with thousands of followers all over the world who supported them and had convinced themselves that the McCann's were the evil ones denying their 'daughter' the truth. Even after DNA tests, a court case and an admission of guilt, people were still making up stories to justify these women's actions. It makes you realise just how many sad and/or mentally ill people there are out there that will do or say literally anything for fame or money! There was also numerous people who claimed to have been abused by Saville that were fake. It's very hard to know which bits of the files are real but I take most of the stuff that doesn't fit with his general MO (murders, dead babies, young boys, torture etc) with a pinch of salt. I suspect there's a reason why such things are only being covered by social media and the conspiracy pages.

Carla786 · 22/02/2026 19:52

Lydia Laurenson is US a writer- I don't agree with everything she says but she's written some interesting stuff on both sex & politics. Her Substack post on her encounter with Epstein indicates he did at least sometimes engineer situations that should seem at least potentially dodgy to the average person. I've copied the most relevant bits below.

https://lydialaurenson.substack.com/p/its-just-politics-the-time-i-met

The acquaintance who introduced me to Jeffrey Epstein told me that Epstein was a very interesting guy, had funded amazing projects, but had a “complicated” reputation. They said Epstein’s reputation was due to “politics.”
We discussed basic scientific research (Epstein reportedly was one of the biggest private science funders in the USA). We discussed public health. Then, with the public health conversation, we started talking about New York City’s sexual history.
I should note here that I spent much of my twenties doing activism, writing, and education related to sexuality. People often ask me about this personal history, and I always try to answer their questions honestly t. As a result of my unusual history, I was not automatically discomfited when Epstein brought up sexual topics, because people frequently bring up those topics with me. Yet, as the conversation intensified, something about his energy became intensely uncomfortable for me, even though I am accustomed to navigating such topics.
From my brief scan of Epstein’s Wikipedia entry, I recalled that Epstein had been convicted of something related to sex crimes against minors, but I also recalled that he hadn’t served much time. The person who introduced me to Epstein dismissed his crimes as “politics.” But was it true? I thought to myself: I would expect a man convicted of such crimes to carefully contain his sexuality. Yet Jeffrey Epstein, in person, was anything but contained.
Within the first fifteen minutes of our conversation, the phone rang and Jeffrey picked it up. He said something like: “Oh yeah, give the girl an internship.” Then he named several large amounts of money Then Jeffrey hung up and turned to me with a smile. He informed me that sometimes, he really wanted to give people money. It was the easiest thing in the world, Jeffrey smilingly said, to make it look like the money hadn’t come from him.

Soon after that, he rang a bell and a group of young women entered the room. Really pretty women. Who looked like teenagers.
I had read about these barely-legal Russian women in Page Six. A source told the gossip magazine that Jeffrey’s Manhattan mansion was “full of young beauties,” and that “half of them are from the former Soviet Union and the other half are a mix of Americans and Europeans… When the Russian girls arrive in the city, they already have Jeffrey’s phone number.” I looked at them. They did not look underage to me. The Page Six article had reported that they were at the legal age of consent.
I was confused about what might be expected of me. But I didn’t have much time to think about it, because Jeffrey immediately prompted me to start talking about the sexuality workshops I used to teach in my twenties. Then he encouraged the girls to ask me questions. The group particularly wanted to know about BDSM and polyamory
By doing this, Jeffrey, intentionally or not, diverted me into my educator mode. This is a role I’m accustomed to, and the young women seemed genuinely interested, so I simply started talking to them about sex education. Taking this familiar “educator” role did not erase the strangeness of the moment, but it gave me something to talk about while I sought a sense of what lay under the surface.
My audience was clearly surprised by the impromptu sex education lesson — they were just as surprised as I was. But despite their surprise, they did not seem nervous or angry. Were these girls being trafficked? The situation felt weird, but simultaneously, the young women — at least, the women I was seeing in front of me, in that moment — seemed capable. They showed an unusual mix of curiosity, excitement, and intense judgments: One, sitting kitty-corner from me, responded to a mild description of BDSM by insisting, “Any man who’d do that to you doesn’t really love you.”
I gazed across the table at her. The gap in our ages and life experiences hit me abruptly, like a blow. Later, I read the stories about his ex-girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell, who’s somewhat older than me. I learned about the sorts of things they (allegedly) did together. And eventually, finally, I began to understand the terrible role that, maybe, Jeffrey Epstein tried to recruit me for.
Occasionally, in my perambulations around the media and tech industries, his name cropped up. One woman turned to me at a random party and said: “I heard you met Jeffrey. Isn’t he great?” “Ah,” I said. I cast about for the right thing to say, and decided to be fairly direct. “I did meet him. What do you think of the charges against him?”“Oh,” she said, with an airy wave of her hand, “it’s just politics.”
A year or two later, I heard from a female friend, through a community whisper network, that this woman was a known procuress for Epstein.
Stories like mine show an outline of how recruitment attempts were made. These stories show how our social context, including our non-sexual networks, created a seemingly respectable veneer over recruitment among the “liberal coastal elite,” while also entangling our sexuality, and how this sometimes occurred in situations where the presence of sexual energy felt strangely hard to define.

"It's Just Politics:" The Time I Met Jeffrey Epstein, Twice

The single most bizarre meeting of my life

https://lydialaurenson.substack.com/p/its-just-politics-the-time-i-met

Carla786 · 22/02/2026 20:01

Another post she wrote

https://lydialaurenson.substack.com/p/social-contracts-moral-order-weaving

:Epstein was a master of this type of social proof. Over and over, one hears the refrain that Intellectual X trusted and respected Jeffrey Epstein because they met him in the company of Intellectuals Y and Z. He also deliberately crafted social situations that “felt weird” but where nothing could be “proven.” When I met Epstein, I had over a decade of experience navigating a wide range of weird social contexts, plus what seems to be some natural talent for doing so; even then, I felt confused afterwards about what I’d seen and I spent years being like: wtf?
It’s clear from reports that Epstein pushed social norms with his grantees, including by bringing young women along with him in inappropriate circumstances. In 2019, Ronan Farrow wrote an article about how Epstein did this with Joi Ito, the founder of the MIT Media Lab, whom Epstein funded; here is an excerpt: In the summer of 2015, as the Media Lab determined how to spend the funds it had received with Epstein’s help, Cohen informed lab staff that Epstein would be coming for a visit. The financier would meet with faculty members, apparently to allow him to give input on projects and to entice him to contribute further. Swenson, the former development associate and alumni coördinator, recalled saying, referring to Epstein, “I don’t think he should be on campus.” She told me, “At that point it hit me: this pedophile is going to be in our office.” According to Swenson, Cohen agreed that Epstein was “unsavory” but said “we’re planning to do it anyway — this was Joi’s project.” Staffers entered the meeting into Ito’s calendar without including Epstein’s name. They also tried to keep his name out of e-mail communication. “There was definitely an explicit conversation about keeping it off the books, because Joi’s calendar is visible to everyone,” Swenson said. “It was just marked as a V.I.P. visit.”
By then, several faculty and staff members had objected to the university’s relationship with Epstein. Ethan Zuckerman, an associate professor, had voiced concerns about the relationship with Epstein for years. In 2013, Zuckerman said, he pulled Ito aside after a faculty meeting to express concern about meetings on Ito’s calendar marked “J.E.” Zuckerman recalled saying, “I heard you’re meeting with Epstein. I don’t think that’s a good idea,” and Ito responding, “You know, he’s really fascinating. Would you like to meet him?” Zuckerman declined and said that he believed the relationship could have negative consequences for the lab.
In 2015, as Epstein’s visit drew near, Cohen instructed his staff to insure that Zuckerman, if he unexpectedly arrived while Epstein was present, be kept away from the glass-walled office in which Epstein would be conducting meetings. According to Swenson, Ito had informed Cohen that Epstein “never goes into any room without his two female ‘assistants,’ ” whom he wanted to bring to the meeting at the Media Lab. Swenson objected to this, too, and it was decided that the assistants would be allowed to accompany Epstein but would wait outside the meeting room.
On the day of the visit, Swenson’s distress deepened at the sight of the young women. “They were models. Eastern European, definitely,” she told me. Among the lab’s staff, she said, “all of us women made it a point to be super nice to them. We literally had a conversation about how, on the off chance that they’re not there by choice, we could maybe help them.”
This is a slightly different permutation of the behavior I described in my own post about meeting Epstein: Bringing obviously young women into meetings where it made little sense for them to be there. Epstein wasn’t just working within the SL-Op, he was actively creating new SL-Op, deliberately making others uncomfortable by pushing the Overton window. I don’t doubt that an important effect of this behavior, from Epstein’s perspective, was that it both caused gossip and drama, and started shifting the line in onlookers’ minds about what was acceptable behavior among grantmakers and grantees.
After the visit described above, Zuckerman resigned and Swenson became a whistleblower — but she had help from an organization called Whistleblower Aid, which assists whistleblowers who are “public and private sector workers.”

The Ronan Farrow article is here : very disturbing.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-an-elite-university-research-center-concealed-its-relationship-with-jeffrey-epstein

How an Élite University Research Center Concealed Its Relationship with Jeffrey Epstein

New documents show that the M.I.T. Media Lab was aware of Epstein’s status as a convicted sex offender, and that Epstein directed contributions to the lab far exceeding the amounts M.I.T. has publicly admitted.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-an-elite-university-research-center-concealed-its-relationship-with-jeffrey-epstein

Carla786 · 22/02/2026 20:04

I think the key thing to take from that is that Epstein may have been careful to only be seen with overage women after he was caught,, but his behaviour should have still set off alarm bells, at least to some extent, given the way he seems to have acted a lot of the time.

The Page Six article is from 2016 : quote..
'Epstein apparently has contacts in Moscow who provide matchmaking services for both his “orgy island” in the Caribbean (which he jokingly dubbed Little St. Jeff’s) and his Manhattan townhouse. “When the Russian girls arrive in the city, they already have Jeffrey’s phone number,” said my source.One procurer, Peter Listerman, claims in TV interviews that he introduced many oligarchs and A-listers to Russian models, and says: “I’m not a pimp, just [a] matchmaker.”

https://pagesix.com/2016/03/08/jeffrey-epsteins-east-side-mansion-houses-russian-playmates/

Jeffrey Epstein’s East Side mansion houses Russian playmates

Epstein has contacts in Moscow who provide matchmaking services for both his “orgy island” in the Caribbean and his Manhattan townhouse.

https://pagesix.com/2016/03/08/jeffrey-epsteins-east-side-mansion-houses-russian-playmates/

MissHollyGolightly · 22/02/2026 20:11

deeahgwitch · 21/02/2026 17:55

I don’t understand Kathy Ruemmier being friendly with Epstein post his conviction in 2008 and his serving 13 months for procuring a child for prostitution (and soliciting a prostitute).
Surely with her job she didn’t need him to bankroll her first class travel, her fancy handbags etc.

Because he minimised what he did and people went along with it, and there is actually an enduring idea that if you serve your time for a crime you can be forgiven. Also I think he made her feel like a princess and she had a complex personal life.

Whereareallthegoodpeople · 22/02/2026 20:35

Carla786 · 22/02/2026 20:04

I think the key thing to take from that is that Epstein may have been careful to only be seen with overage women after he was caught,, but his behaviour should have still set off alarm bells, at least to some extent, given the way he seems to have acted a lot of the time.

The Page Six article is from 2016 : quote..
'Epstein apparently has contacts in Moscow who provide matchmaking services for both his “orgy island” in the Caribbean (which he jokingly dubbed Little St. Jeff’s) and his Manhattan townhouse. “When the Russian girls arrive in the city, they already have Jeffrey’s phone number,” said my source.One procurer, Peter Listerman, claims in TV interviews that he introduced many oligarchs and A-listers to Russian models, and says: “I’m not a pimp, just [a] matchmaker.”

https://pagesix.com/2016/03/08/jeffrey-epsteins-east-side-mansion-houses-russian-playmates/

He was/ is? one strange guy, how he had this hold over so many people is fascinating and disturbing

OP posts:
Kalanthe · 22/02/2026 21:34

GameofPhones · 20/02/2026 23:27

Epstein certainly seems to have had a way of manipulating people. Look at the wide range of people who socialised with him (including Noam Chomsky). The initial attraction may have been his financial expertise, but he also inspired devotion (if the messages in the birthday book are genuine). He had some kind of magnetism/charisma.

Chomsky being so close to Epstein really broke my heart. I looked up to this guy

LizzieW1969 · 22/02/2026 22:34

Kalanthe · 22/02/2026 21:34

Chomsky being so close to Epstein really broke my heart. I looked up to this guy

Yes me too. I studied Linguistics during both my 2 degrees and loved it, and I really loved reading Chomsky’s work. I’m so gutted about that.

InterIgnis · 23/02/2026 13:30

Whereareallthegoodpeople · 22/02/2026 20:35

He was/ is? one strange guy, how he had this hold over so many people is fascinating and disturbing

Because he wasn’t just one strange guy. I don’t think it’s any great mystery that he had the appeal he did.

He was well presented, friendly, bold, wealthy, intelligent, socially adept, well connected, non-judgmental, discreet, charismatic, and fun. He was a man with social and economic power, a man that had the ability to get things done, and to hook someone up with whatever they wanted to be hooked up with. Oh, and he had an island.

That’s the Epstein people knew. Not a caricature of a drooling sex pest in a trench coat. People are quite willing to gloss over if not outright dismiss wrongdoing if there’s something in it for them to do so, and if said wrongdoing is done by someone they like.

There’s a propensity to believe, stubbornly, that only good, moral people can have attractive qualities. It’s a comforting thought, and a way to assure yourself that you couldn’t be taken in, but it’s not only untrue, but in reality quite dangerous.

luckylavender · 23/02/2026 14:17

GameofPhones · 20/02/2026 23:11

GM depended on him for money, and got access through him to the top levels of society she had been used to before she lost everything through the death and crimes of her father.

Although the files say that she had a substantial secret inheritance from her father of I think 10million. I'm sure the Mirror pensioners were delighted to hear that. She wasn't quite the penniless heiress that we have been sold.

GameofPhones · 23/02/2026 14:57

LizzieW1969 · 22/02/2026 22:34

Yes me too. I studied Linguistics during both my 2 degrees and loved it, and I really loved reading Chomsky’s work. I’m so gutted about that.

This article might clarify a bit, from one of Chomsky's defenders - see what you think. I've only read through once so far, but I will re-read when I get the chance. Reliable evidence has to be searched for. https://www.compactmag.com/article/noam-chomsky-was-right-about-epstein/

Noam Chomsky Was Right About Epstein

Judging by the delirium that has accompanied the latest release of “Epstein Files,” modern Americans no longer have any standing to snicker at their seventeenth-century forebears who convinced themselves that witches were terrorizing Colonial Massachus...

https://www.compactmag.com/article/noam-chomsky-was-right-about-epstein/

BIWI · 23/02/2026 15:14

It’s one thing to (try and) defend Chomsky, but something completely different to trash Virginia Giuffre the way the author does Hmm

LizzieW1969 · 23/02/2026 16:04

GameofPhones · 23/02/2026 14:57

This article might clarify a bit, from one of Chomsky's defenders - see what you think. I've only read through once so far, but I will re-read when I get the chance. Reliable evidence has to be searched for. https://www.compactmag.com/article/noam-chomsky-was-right-about-epstein/

I’m sorry, but, like @BIWI, I hate the way the writer trashes Virginia Giuffre. Although I accept that Chomsky might have been unfairly maligned.

EatYourDamnPie · 23/02/2026 18:27

GameofPhones · 23/02/2026 14:57

This article might clarify a bit, from one of Chomsky's defenders - see what you think. I've only read through once so far, but I will re-read when I get the chance. Reliable evidence has to be searched for. https://www.compactmag.com/article/noam-chomsky-was-right-about-epstein/

The defence is basically Epstein didn’t do it. And if he did do it it wasn’t that bad. And if it was bad he didn’t mean it. And.. and … and…. The abusers’ creed around the world.

Gallowayan · 23/02/2026 18:37

You are naive to think that women cannot be involved in crimes of this kind. Possibly you have been reading too many of the women are good /men are bad style posts that are so common on here.

I know from experince of providing mental health care to people who have been tortured in Iranian prisons thet women were involved in torturing other women

ThankYouNigel · 23/02/2026 18:38

Couldn’t agree more OP- shocking and distressing. There are some truly awful people out there, and it’s so awful to think about.

Carla786 · 23/02/2026 23:55

GameofPhones · 23/02/2026 14:57

This article might clarify a bit, from one of Chomsky's defenders - see what you think. I've only read through once so far, but I will re-read when I get the chance. Reliable evidence has to be searched for. https://www.compactmag.com/article/noam-chomsky-was-right-about-epstein/

Compact is a weird magazine, they have some sensible articles but some of their stuff is odd.

Carla786 · 24/02/2026 00:01

Michael Tracey is a bit of a weirdo himself...he has said some sensible things, but he seems oddly keen to play down Trump's Russian links and even the Bucha massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tracey_(journalist)

Michael Tracey (journalist) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tracey_(journalist)

Carycach4 · 24/02/2026 00:16

If you look at teacher misconduct hearings, it os shocking how many female teachers are sexual predators.

LizzieW1969 · 24/02/2026 08:29

GM was essentially playing the role of brothel ‘madam’, supplying girls to wealthy, powerful men. It isn’t actually all that unusual, though it’s uncomfortable to think of a woman exploiting vulnerable girls.

Although it definitely doesn’t sit easy with me that the only person in prison for Epstein’s crimes is a woman. And with her history as Robert Maxwell’s daughter, GM would have been vulnerable to Epstein herself. (No excuse for her actions, obviously.)