To be the most shocked about the women possibly involved in it all

[Whereareallthegoodpeople]

With Epstein.

Men, i’m pretty much sick of at this point in my late 40’s, adore my Ddad and Dh is one of the good ones, but thinking back to being young and leering men and uncomfortable and scary situations.
But, rumours of women possibly being involved-obviously vile GM, but a supposed supermodel, JE’s personal assistants and women that seemed to work for him, reports of possibly owning adoption agencies etc. If all true, how on earth could women see children and young girls being abused and hurt and actively make that happen?? Where were all the safe people, why did no one notice and say or do anything?

So sorry you had to go through that, it’s just unthinkable and the exact opposite of how the majority would naturally act

Because you don’t want it to be?

It’s true. People are largely as good or as bad as circumstances permit them to be.

Take Nazi prison guards - there were many notably vicious women amongst them. Further removed, you also have those bureaucrats that developed and maintained the infrastructure of genocide. The Yugoslav wars - when neighbor butchered neighbor. People who had happily lived in close proximity to one another justified slaughtering each other.

Most of these people weren’t particularly remarkable or abnormal people who wouldn’t have lived/ didn’t otherwise live perfectly ‘good’ and respectable lives. They would have done, and did. That’s the banality of evil.

As far as no one noticing anything or 'doing anything about it' - what would you, personally, have done?? Really and truly? If you had somehow stumbled upon what was happening do you think you would have been the only soul who would have said something?

This sort of set up is incredibly powerful, as we are seeing. Do you imagine that you would have been in a position to tell anyone, without threat or consequences? And who would you have told? Who could you trust? Who would have had the power to do something?

I think you're being naive.

I’m not sure I believe this though…or perhaps I’m extremely naive

Why do people assume women are more saintly than men? And what nonsense is this sisterhood all women are perfect angels thing

Since when?

There are good and bad men same as women why is it so hard to understand

Unfortunately, women have always been perpetrators and will always be perpetrators too. It’s less common than with men, and therefore we are more shocked when we see women act in such a way.

Tbh all of this stuff was simply considered normal for the patriarchy. Women henchmen, pick me girls, handmaidens & good girls or bad girls. All trying to find a way to survive. So that some became perpetrators themselves. Throw in group behaviour, power politics, desperation, corruption & greed. The trafficking, commodifying of women as sex objects, breeders, slaves, and literal commodities is as old as time. It’s a core pillar of patriarchal power & its economy. It’s what our post colonnial, post imperial patriarchal society was built on. It’s horrific. And it’s still happening. Thank god we as a society are able to fully see it. How nobody could see it during the Saville era despite it being blatant. Thank god the tide is turning. Patriarchy is horrific.

I edited my comment after you quoted, but will copy and paste in reply here:

Take Nazi prison guards - there were many notably vicious women amongst them. Further removed, you also have those bureaucrats that developed and maintained the infrastructure of genocide. The Yugoslav wars - when neighbor butchered neighbor. People who had happily lived in close proximity to one another justified slaughtering each other. The same in Rwanda.

Most of these people weren’t particularly remarkable or abnormal people who wouldn’t have lived/ didn’t otherwise live perfectly ‘good’ and respectable lives. They would have done, and did. That’s the banality of evil.

Is it less common or dont we hear about it as much, how many men would admit or report abuse by a woman?

I suspect GM got a sense of both power and protection from the father and then Epstein. If she had feelings for Epstein and he clesrly preferred very yoing gorgeous model types. then I'm guessing by repositoning herself ss a recruiter/ perpetrator she can set herself apart from his other women.......and convince herself of her ' superiority'. That would be my take on it.

The perpetrators will be almost all men, and the victims will be almost all girls, I don't think we should lose sight of that.

Meh … shit happens. Not unthinkable at all. It’s happening right now , all over the world on small or large scales. “Unthinkable” is how people get away with it for so long. Unthinkable makes people let their guard down. Unthinkable gives people a false sense of security. Unthinkable makes people doubt themselves, even when they want to do something. Unthinkable makes them quiet, pliable, compliant, complicit.

Eyes wide open (but carry on anyway).

That's assuming nobody has morals though. I can't imagine being like that, regardless of whether you told me there was no consequences, no comeback, doesn't cost anything or whatever.
I'm surely not the only one out there who feels like that. So we're not entirely doomed yet.

This.

I’m from what was Yugoslavia, and I lived there through the most recent shitshow that was the 90s. When societal structures break down the ‘unthinkable’ swiftly becomes reality.

Put simply - money. Virginia Guiffre is a great example here. She had friends, family and even a boyfriend. They all knew that her life, her flat, her car her trips abroad were all funded by Epstein in exchange for money. But not one of them did anything about it. Her boyfriend watched her leave the house and come back every day knowing full well what she was doing whilst she was out but never did anything. She was funding his life as well as hers so apparently that was fine. From the top to the bottom, its all about money.

I do believe there is an issue around reporting when it comes to the abuse and exploitation of men, especially when committed by a woman.

However, in my line of work there is a stark difference in terms of who the perpetrators are when it comes to the sexual abuse of children. Men are mostly the perpetrators and the numbers are significant enough that a reporting bias is unlikely to shift the numbers of perpetrators to be equal between the sexes, or even close for that matter.

Yes exactly me too. I honestly don’t believe the majority have no morals and are evil, but don’t act upon it in case they’re caught and go to prison etc. If we were suddenly allowed to do whatever we wanted, when we wanted, would that make me become a murderer or abuser, definitely not

And when you think of the timing of it all - she hadn’t known Epstein that long. She’d gone to NY to lead her father’s new venture, she had a huge luxury home and a status that was more than she’d ever had before.

Then in a heartbeat it’s all gone. Her dad is presumed dead and the missing money is known about. Suddenly she’s in a flat smaller than she’s ever experience with no income. Along comes Epstein.

He was exactly what she expected the man in her life to be.

I think her genuine life story would be a horrific read. From both “how did she survive that” and from “why would she do that to innocent people” angles. You’ll never hear the true life story though.

That still sounds awfully like trying to reason away her behaviour and trying to find excuses though.
The likes you wouldn't find if the sexes were reversed.

I agree.
Svengali.
The lure of money & status, etc.

Just look at the many millions, male and female, who happily voted for convicted criminal Trump.

Most presumably realise he's a bad man. I assume some of them think, by some twisted calculation, "A real badass president is what America needs".

Others cheerfully admit: "I voted for Trump to make the liberal do-gooders cry."

Nastiness and ill intent are not rare human characteristics.

Women tend to be the safer sex because we’re physically weaker on average, and in particular, weaker than the object of our sexual desire (mostly). So in circumstances where women can get something by being vile and it not needing physical strength, we probably shouldn’t be surprised that a proportion of women are prepared to do that for their own benefit. I’m not sure there’s much evidence that we’re actually nicer on average, and certainly not to the extent we shouldn’t expect a big network of abuse to not include women unless w2omen were actively excluded by the men in the network.

Women have been complicit in the abuse of women, children and slaves throughout history.

There’s no excusing her behaviour. Not ever. There comes a time when you have to accept that you’re an adult who makes your choices (I have that very clearly exampled in my family - 4 siblings, all of us abused by our father is horrific ways. 2 have gone on to abuse their own children. 2 of us have had very lengthy, fucking hard therapy to make sure that never happens in our homes). She’s responsible for her actions as an adult.

However, understanding behaviour can help stop it happening again in the future. If you can explain how someone ended up how they are then hopefully you can protect the next group of women from the next GM.

Elisabeth Maxwell was a highly regarded scholar and peace activist. It is believed she knew nothing about the missing pension funds; she was left financially severely depleted after his death. "Elisabeth lost her pension, all her property, and only her children continued to support her. She was a wonderful person, kind and supportive, quite contrary to her husband, whom she loved despite everything."

She told the New York Times "The worst years of my life were 1981 to 1991. I was at his beck and call with no kudos, nothing was right. What saved me was my work on the Holocaust."

Ghislaine was born two days before a car accident that left her fifteen-year-old brother Michael in a six-year coma until he died in 1967. Elisabeth later reflected that the accident had an effect on the entire family, and surmised that Ghislaine had shown signs of anorexia while only a toddler. In a well-known anecdote, toddler Ghislaine stood before her mother and declared, "Mummy, I exist!"

She was unquestionably her father's favourite, materially indulged and given significant control over his businesses. The Times reported that he did not permit Ghislaine to bring her boyfriends home, or to be seen with them publicly, after she started university.

... so you have a girl whose early years were overshadowed by grief, whose important daddy made her feel important and, from the time she was 15, focused on her while devaluing his wife. He dedicated his new yacht to Ghislaine when she was 20.

She moved to New York straight after Robert's death, making a beeline for the city's high society. She was involved with Epstein by 1993, soon running his household, some of his businesses and much of his social life. Friends of Epstein said "You could say she was pretty much entirely dependent on him. She loves him. He sometimes treats her well, sometimes off-handedly. You could say she sees something of a father in him."

I think it's a high-relief, technicolor version of the old story, in which those of us raised by domineering fathers don't know how to have any other kind of relationships with men. I'm not saying this excuses her. She reduced her visibility by Epstein's side after he was convicted of soliciting a minor - she could have severed the relationship then, but carried on being his "best friend". I imagine she learned from her dad that you can get away with anything if you're clever.

All of Elisabeth's children stayed close to her until she died in 2013. She lived in France and there's no suggestion she had anything to do with Epstein's shenanigans.

Hang on, what? I thought she was living with Epstein during the abuse, not with a boyfriend..