To be the most shocked about the women possibly involved in it all

[Whereareallthegoodpeople]

With Epstein.

Men, i’m pretty much sick of at this point in my late 40’s, adore my Ddad and Dh is one of the good ones, but thinking back to being young and leering men and uncomfortable and scary situations.
But, rumours of women possibly being involved-obviously vile GM, but a supposed supermodel, JE’s personal assistants and women that seemed to work for him, reports of possibly owning adoption agencies etc. If all true, how on earth could women see children and young girls being abused and hurt and actively make that happen?? Where were all the safe people, why did no one notice and say or do anything?

I think psychopaths naturally congregate around people who they can use. His enablers were also using him to get closer to power and wealth. I suppose it was a gang of psychopaths working together to help themselves by helping each other.

Women can be very evil...less often in a directly violent & sexual way, and on average women have more empathy. But there are still sadly plenty of vile women out there.

The whole Epstein situation is revolting and I can't even listen or read about the details. However when people are shocked that women were involved it does give the vibe that women are responsible for mens behaviour. Not just in how we present ourselves but the whole "how did the wife/girlfriend let this happen" or that "their mother didn't raise them right" etc.

The majority of perpetuators of abuse in the Epstein files are men, the worst actors were men. Women are one big homogenous group that all agree on stuff and work together, of course there are horrible women. I find the whole thing shocking, the abusers, the enablers, the sheer scale of the thing.

The most shocking thing of all is that apart from Epstein and Maxwell there have been hardly any high profile arrests made. That is simply mind boggling to me, I just can't understand.

Women can be just as bad as men (and Brady might not have been able to do what he did without Hindley, because too many people saw women as "better" than men-then, and in our time, with Vanessa George etc).
Just as some people seem to think terrorists can't be white and British, some people seem to think women are always better than men.
A few years ago someone was talking about men attacking women in our town, but the only people I know who have been hurt said the perpetrators were women/girls, and they failed to react because they had assumed only men hurt people. Not to say that men don't, of course (and I'm well aware the majority of reports are about men), but we need to stop being appalled by the idea of a woman or girl being dangerous, or saying that it is worse for a woman to be evil than for a man to be.

We all need money yes, but these things are unspeakable, billions offered would not make me bring children to be abused and to be part of that

Probably a Mossad agent ...

Agreed. We're not talking about normal people.

In the case of Jeffery Epstein I just find it so hard that all these men claim this didn't happen around them now Epstein enjoyed entertaining these rich and famous people and clearly spent a lot of time in other people's company.

Im not really buying we knew nothing about it, those young girls were treated like bits of meet,the morals of these people didn't come into it they probably didn't have any in the first place,all they cared about was money and status.

I cried my own tears around my own sexual abuse a long time ago but I've cried a lot of tears recently for these poor girls just like Rochdale and Rotherham people knew nobody cared about them, children alone who are supposed to trust adults to protect them this world is awful,evil at times of course women commit crimes like this but in this case and many other cases the cause of such childhoods are destroyed by men.

@MeganM3 Rose West sexually exploited, used, abused, and was involved in killing young girls over years and it wasn’t because of money alone.

Yes, because that's a different scenario. That's an extremely rare case of a particularly evil woman, who was married to a man who was also extremely evil.

When it's a whole bunch of women who are working for a wealthy man and who are on his payroll, then that's people who are motivated by financial gain.

@Whereareallthegoodpeople We all need money yes, but these things are unspeakable, billions offered would not make me bring children to be abused and to be part of that

I've seen plenty of horrific things in different workplaces. Not nearly as bad as what Epstein did, but bad enough to make me understand that there are plenty of people who will sweep horrific things under the rug, and behave in an unethical and immoral way, if it means keeping their job and continuing to make money.

History clearly shows us what people are when they feel safe from consequences.
Every society has had its hedonistic elite that happily committed heinous acts seemingly constantly.

This is that. Every society throughout history has had the same. A protected bubble at the top raping and murdering, orgies and everything without consequence. (Of course such people exist in every part of a society but most don't have the protections that the super rich and powerful do)

I truly fear that what it proves is that this is the ugly truth of human nature. Sometimes I wonder if this what we are as a species, underneath. Just strip us back, tell us we can have what we want, do what we want and our so called humanity fucking vanishes.

I feel like this too, just so upset/angry, just in disbelief

Yes, but when it comes to children knowingly having all sorts done to them, it’s heartbreaking

I'm really sorry that happened to you. 💐

There was a book I came across a while ago written in 1997 (in the US) which tackled mother-daughter sexual abuse, but it's still not acknowledged much.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=archive.org/details/lastsecretdaught0000rose&ved=2ahUKEwiUu6WwoemSAxWUQUEAHZimBg8QFnoECD0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1j9xs9yU66rnl9s3LxWVwS

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1557085106292779

There is a subreddit though with a sadly quite high number of members:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mdsa/s/mYkWA39t6M

Yes, same, it’s all so confusing too, what on earth has gone on and with who

The biggest enabler of all is surely Pam Bondi - and her weird "protective of abuser" redactions.

On a very small scale , but my mum sent me to a maths tutor that she had been “warned” about.She didn’t get any financial gain, in fact she paid for it. She thought I’d be safe because I was fat. I wasn’t. Plus the return … good grades, going to uni , becoming successful probably made it all worth it. She did fuck all when I told her what happened. As did so many other parents , because the gossip mill must’ve been running is she was warned. And yet dozens of parents , professional, educated people (doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers) kept sending their kids to the great, amazing, esteemed professor X. Paying for the privilege of having their teenage daughters abused. And doing nothing. Saying nothing. Except for whispered warnings.

Now time that by 1000000. The power, the influence ,the strings , the corruption nevermind the money.

I'm with you on this - as in I can see and be disgusted by the men being involved, but can also see that women can be just as involved too.
I haven't been following the files too closely as I just can't bear to, but women seem to get a free pass on MN from what I've seen over the years. We're always victims, can never think for ourselves, anything we do is a product of the patriarchy and we've just been conditioned to think a certain way
To hell with personal responsibility.
Fuck all that, as you say, where were the safe adults?

I've done a lot of reading about Nazi Germany, (and about Soviet soldiers' behaviour during the war) and I'm afraid you're probably right. But hey there were some resisters, and Nazism didn't win in the end.

I spoke to someone this week who knew her and said she was totally screwed up and that amongst their friends it was assumed she had been sexually abused by her father

I’ve also heard from another friend who came across her in the 80s that she was an obnoxious bully who delighted in sneering at underlings.

as has already been said, two things can be true at the same time.

Right, but let's remember it still IS mostly men who rape & murder and force no consenting people into orgies etc Women have always done these things too, but they've still been in a minority in such groups.

'this is the ugly truth of human nature. Sometimes I wonder if this what we are as a species, underneath. Just strip us back, tell us we can have what we want, do what we want and our so called humanity fucking vanishes.'

• I agree to some extent with this but am more optimistic. And moreover, this still mainly applies to men.

If men have the agency to be bad and do bad things, so do women.
There is some fucked up double-think in this thread that assumes men can be bad regardless of social norms but women are only bad because of social norms.
JE was a beast. Those women that enabled him were just as bad. No-one should be making excuses for them.
Nevertheless, in the 1980s, it was a joke that 14-year-old Mandy Smith was going out with (possibly fucking?) 48 year-old Rolling Stone Bill Wyman. In fact, the tabloids thought it was a hoot. I completely agree that we should protect kids but we need to persecute the enablers as well as the perpetrators

I’m so sorry you had to go through that😔
yes, it just hurts your heart as children are innocent and need looking after
i’m finding it hard to feel faith in humankind at the moment to be honest. Trying to remember that there has to be many more good people than bad

Yes, I'm fed up with that. Women ARE often victims, but victims can also be perpetrators and it's infantilising to always assume women are victims. If women choose to sell sex and promote 'sex work is work', many posters still say she is only a victim. A woman chooses to be an OW : it's only the DH's fault. A woman enables abuse: she was abused too and couldn't help it.

Many argue against these attitudes, but too many promote them.

No, it can’t be