How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

I guess am just very different. I wouldn't go for a coffee with my neighbour or a random parent unless it was because the parent wanted to have a playdate with my kids. So I would do it for my kids sake.

But no I wouldn't let someone I don't know well drive my kids somewhere.

Other things I may ease up on as my kids develop but people driving my kids when I don't know how they drive, their opinions on carseat safety etc. I also wouldn't drive someone elses child unless I knew the parents very well.

@Karma1387 it is perfectly ok for you to explain to your children your truths in your life but what isn’t is passing it over to them.

I love my mother but one thing I have constantly fought with her/against is exactly that. That because something is tricky or hard or impossible or not interesting to her it is the same for me. Which it isn’t I am a different person to her and where we do have traits in common we also have many not

and I think you have to be prepared for the fact that although the rules such as people taking your child places are fine and easy to implement in infant school they will get increasingly harder to do so.

Your children are not an extension of you they are individuals in their own rights and on so many levels you need to come to terms with that

But you've said you don't want friends and won't interact with other parents at school beyond basic civilities. So you won't have any neighbours that you chat to, or go for coffee with. You won't know any parents well enough (by your definition) to pick up your children up from school. Can you not see the disconnect between these two statements?

When my DC started school (and it was an infants school with attached nursery so only took children age 3-7 - which I think fits your definition of "young") I was amazed how many "random" people they came into contact with. I'd met their teacher and class TA at the parents' evening and a couple of induction sessions, and had felt comfortable I knew who my children would be mixing with. I hadn't factored in that the 2 Reception classes mixed freely for a lot of the day so they saw the other teacher and TA nearly as much as the ones in their own class. That two children had 1:1 learning support mentors who mixed generally with the class. That there was a cover supervisor one afternoon a week. That a Year 2 teacher sometimes ran sessions in a subject that was her particular interest. That there were any number of lunchtime supervisors. That the office staff would mix with the children. That volunteers from the PTA would come in to talk to the children and sometimes run activities. That there would be volunteer parent readers (who were not parents of children in the same year as that was school policy). That they had an outside sports provider come in sometimes. That teachers from the local juniors sometimes came to visit with junior school. children as a "bridging activity". That they had drama groups come in sometimes. That the vicar from the local church came in to talk about Christian festivals. You get the idea. My children knew a whole lot of adults that I hadn't considered at all, and many of whom I didn't know.

And as they get older and don't require things like car seats and they are able to contact me easily and communicate well I will likely relax.

I am more than happy for my kids to make friends. It would make me very happy if they have friends. But whilst they are young I will have rules and boundaries to keep them safe which will lessen as and when me and my partner are comfortable.

But I equally have no desire for other parents to be picking up my children. Not to mention having forced or fake friendships with people doesn't equal me being willing for them to pick up my children.

I never had a problem with others driving my DC tbh but in fact in the example I gave, my neighbour and I walked our DC the 10 mins to school. Another reason why it’s a good idea to live locally to your primary school.

BTW I notice @Karma1387 that you refer more than once to applying for primary schools you are not in catchment for. You do know I hope that submitting your form just indicates your preference, and if the out-of-catchment schools are oversubscribed by more local families, then you won’t be offered a place; instead you will be offered your nearest school that does have places. Just FYI and in case you were not aware.

and as they get older these things happen organically they do just become able to do th things.

What I think would be worth doing is when you do have a rule or boundary work out why. Is it because it is sensible one designed to protect your child - not talking to strangers, driving in a car with appropriate safety seating which are absolutely fine, or ones that are more looking at yiur child - when for example they are ready to be left at a party or a play date where there is a range

and ones fuelled by your own anxiety and need to be in control and know exactly where your children are

I am aware about the school place. If we don't move before school applications go in and we don't get placed at the school we want I will home school until we get a place.

100% I will be guided by my child on when they are ready and we also think it is appropriate. I know lots of things will be guided by my children.

Not read most of the thread. But age 2 is way too young to know whether a child will pass the 11+. This is going back years but when I was at secondary school in the mid 1990's lots of parents would send their children to private school for primary and then try for the grammar. The grammar school would encourage hefty donations from parents, many of whom would pay because it was a lot cheaper than forking out for private secondary school.

Also schools change a lot. The school my dcs go to was fairly awful when my eldest was 2. It wasn't great when he started but the head teacher left when he was in year 9 and the new one has been great. Now the school is oversubscribed for the first time in many years and ofsted have rated them as "good".

I think you need to look at how comprehensive schools work.

Some stream, very common in 11+ areas where the children who have passed 11+ but not got in the school can have a 'grammar stream'.

Another option most schools use is 'setting' so you might have 4-5 'sets'. So you can have a child who is in a top set for maths, but in set 3 for English.

It puts children of similar abilities together for individual subjects.

It has been used for decades, in my day the top 2-3 sets were entered for O Levels and lower sets did CSEs. So you could be doing 6 O Levels and 3 CSEs.

I had similar when I briefly lost them age 5 DS at a National trust place. I’m sure there was a shop somewhere, and maybe he could’ve aimed for the big house but finding someone with children nearby ( or even just staying put) was an infinitely better option than trying to get there through wilderness and formal gardens ( I think there was a lake too). As it happened I found him just as a helpful woman with kids was trying to work out where we were to help him.
OP this level of paranoia is not normal. You don’t have to answer, but I am wondering if you had awful childhood experiences that are clouding your judgement. If so that’s understandable, but you should really get some therapy before you pass on this anxiety to your children.

Not awful but not perfect but nothing that hasn't already been covered in years of therapy.

OP, you need to keep an eye on the new duty on local authorities to keep a register of home-schooled children. There is legislation on this being drafted at the moment. The purpose of the legislation is for local authorities to have a formal record of where every child is, to help keep children safe.

Another point to bear in mind is that schools are legally responsible for a child on their roll during school hours. That's why there are strict procedures about parental reporting of absences.

Typo

But none of this thread or what you are asking is?

one of mine did Grammar the other one of the local mix comp (and not the better rated single sex) because it suits them

move to a set of decent schools by all means but stop worrying about decision that are years away

I’m afraid this just isn’t true. Fractions and factoring are part of the yr 5 curriculum. Unless your nephew is at some kind of weird hothouse private school, it’s impossible. Also it doesn’t work with your argument - if classrooms are full of disruptive children and no-one is learning then how are they doing maths’ curriculums meant for children 5 years older? It’s one or the other (actually it’s neither).

Op, dc don't suddenly go from baby hood to adulthood and understand the world overnight.

There is a whole raft of growing and learning to be done in between and educating them so that they can function in the world. Part of this is learning how to communicate with other human beings, so yes, as your dc grow they will talk to people that you and they don't know already. Re your dc going in a car with others, do you intend to be going everywhere with them when they are adults? Job interviews etc, or do you think it would be more sensible to teach them to risk assess these things for themselves with support as they grow?

My now adult dc are very different, and we found a good approach was to assess each dc needs indivually, and to do what was right for each one at that moment.
One went to grammar and thrived
One refused to go to grammar, despite passing the 11+, they preferred the comp and are now at university.
One needed the support from the comp that they wouldn't have got from the grammar due to their dyslexia.

It is insanity to be planning your lives around a possible school place in 9 years. A fabulous ofsted review now, may be downgraded by the time you get there, the school may not be a good fit for your family, your dc may not be academic enough, or may not thrive in the environment of that school. You won't know this until your dc is many years older.

My advice is to concentrate on what is right for your family now and as your family grows and develops reassess your options.

OP, I've had an idea, having reflected on what you have posted so far about your preferences. You mention that you own a house other than the one you live in. You also say there are lots of independent schools near where you live now. Why not stay where you are, sell your other house, and use the capital to fund independent schools for both your children? You could take financial advice about how to handle the proceeds of sale to maximise their investment potential and be tax efficient.

Hopefully, there is a small, nurturing school close by that you can walk to to drop them off and pick them up until whatever age you deem suitable for them to be independent, so you need never be late and the risk of them talking to any adult other than you and the school staff will be reduced. As you would be a customer rather than a tax payer as in the state system you so dislike and distrust, you would have much more say in how the school managed your children day-to-day and they would get much more individual attention because class sizes are nearer 10 than 30. My DD went to an independent school for A level and was in a class of two for French. The holidays are longer too so you would have more time at home with them.

Being a customer also has its downsides, of course. If your children had behavioral problems, for instance, the school could take the view that they would rather be without both the behaviour and the fee income so your children would be asked to leave. You would also find higher expectations of you and your partner participating in school events with other parents, which given your preference for a solitary, domestic life may not be welcome. Another risk is that your children might make friends with other children who live in neighbouring villages, increasing the risk of play dates and parents offering your children lifts.

Obviously this would all depend on the value of the house, and how much, if any, is mortgaged. There are hybrid options too - state primary out of catchment, independent from 11 or 13.

The key point, though, is that there is no perfect solution for any of us when it comes to choosing a school for our children, and we have less control than we may like to think. My DD went to an out-of-catchment infant school because I didn't like the fact that the school opposite our house at the time was racially uniform (every child white, as we are), unlike the civil service nursery she attended and loved. My neighbour was unhappy about classes being shuffled around at junior level. I told him class composition is the school's to decide, because they know all the children well.

As several have said on here, home schooling presents difficulties too - cost especially at secondary level, risk of isolation and poor socialisation of children, burden on parent, narrow curriculum, need to evidence to the local authority what has been taught, the forthcoming duty on local authorities to maintain a register of home-schooled children (see previous today).

No the house we live in is the one I own. We rented in Essex when I met my partner but moved back my way when I was pregnant as my mortgage is considerably cheaper than Essex rent. Unfortunately not a huge amount of equity and 100% not enough to fund private school otherwise we would just sell and move to a better area.

I do really appreciate all your comments especially as my views are obviously quite extreme so I appreciate the input and patience and it has given us a lot to think about.

I appreciate your input.

Regarding the car aspect. This really applies more when they are in car seat age. I am very very OTT regarding car seat safety and I know a lot of people disagree with me on it so it is more a fear and worry of other parents not following the car seat expectations I have. If I meet parents I trust to follow my wishes or when my child no longer requires a car seat then it wont be as much as a worry for me. So no I don't expect to be going to interviews etc with them.

Ah, my misunderstanding about your house. How about grandparents funding independent schools rather than leaving their estate to you and your DP, something grandparents do if they can afford it? Or you working full time so your income funds school, or is invested for secondary? You say your partner's salary is your majority income at the moment so that could be an option. Based on the information you have given, I'm struggling to see how the state system can give you what you want, hence these more 'out if the box' ideas.

As your views are extreme, would it be worth investing in some time with an education consultant in case there are options you haven't considered eg leaving the UK? I have three godchildren brought up in Sweden, for example, where many schools are small and informal, and they don't start until they are six. That would give you 3+ years to research, visit the country, look at schools, think about jobs and apply for a work permit. Denmark has a lot to offer too and is very child-centric and safe - babies left to sleep outside shops in sub-zero temperatures etc. Most people in Scandinavia speak good English so you could get away with learning only the basics of Swedish or Dsnish.

Unfortunately no supper rich grandparents.

Me going back to a career could be an option but would involve sacrificing the time I have with my kids so it would be a huge huge decision but something to consider.

I really appreciate all your ideas. We have decided we are going to focus on primary education for now and what we want to do regarding that/where we want to live and we will explore secondary schools further down the line. As a lot of people have stated I have to let go of some of my fear around the kids having to potentially change primary schools as I cant predict what any school will look like in 9 years time.

@LlttledrummergirI When I worked in education, we often had parents of babies asking us about school catchments. No www then! However it’s not new to plan where you want to be if you cannot afford private. Where I worked, we had several brilliant primary schools and, 30 years on, they still are! They are still excellent and sought after. There’s no way dc can rock up and get into one of these. No one moves! It’s inevitable people with babies check out housing within catchments.

The thing is with car seat is the whole when they go forward facing etc

but once it becomes a potential thing they are at least 5/6 before it becomes an issue and then by and large I would expect a conversation and a high booster seat to be handed over

you are worrying far far too much about things that are going to simply not be an issue when the time comes

It’s actual insanity that this grammar school thread is centred on a 2 year old.