To think Lowe is going to wipe the floor with Farage?

[BlueJuniper94]

Just that. AIBU to think this is the end of Farage?

Post the links here about them.

I don't think anyone is denying it happens but could easily point out where Race played a factor in either the actual abuse or the way the authorities reacted to it.

It doesn't mean one or another is worse, it just means there are specifics.

But go ahead, post the links. It's important everyone knows. But also understands the differences.

Well legally they are entitled to, and unless that changes, they’re going to - so whether they have to or not isn’t really the question. We can either create safe and legal passage, and an asylum system that works, or carry on shouting about boats.

Do you have any other international laws and protections you’d like to get rid of? Rights of the Child? Human Rights? War Crimes?

I absolutely agree that victims have been badly let down and that needs to be dealt with. And yes, there was a particular issue with how the Pakistani gangs were not held accountable as they should have been. But that is not the same thing as saying that the grooming gangs are overwhelmingly Pakistani.
As i pointed out, that article denotes “group offences” as 2 or more. So it could just be 2. It also notes around half are child on child. When people reference “ the grooming gangs” they are specifically talking about the Pakistani origin, organised gangs. But you know this.
That's not the same as saying “ most group rape activities are perpetrated by Pakistanis” . It’s stating that there is a known phenomenon of these men from a particular culture treating girls in a certain way. If you were a working class person from Keighley or Dewsbury or Oldham you would know this, because you would know victims.
My point was that the far right are doing so well in terms of public support because successive governments refuse to act.

My feelings exactly! The man couldn’t run a bath without help.

All of those are not immutable and will change over time, just as they have done up until this point.They are a reflection of the society and period of history that we live in - nothing more.

I would be interested to know which particular bit(s) of my post you disagree with.

I think most of us would agree. Far anything isn't great. They almost meet in the middle.

TwelvePiecesOfFlair said,
**
"The grooming/ rape gangs involve mainly the systematic, organised abuse of children over the span of decades, aided and abetted by useful idiots in social services and police and are overwhelmingly made up of networks of men of Pakistani heritage."
**
To which I point out again:
In terms of group-based offences, 85% of suspects are white, while 7% are Asian and 5% are black.

The crimes you quote are horrific and the perpetrators should feel the full force of the law. And yes, in the same way Catholic priests using their positions of power to abuse children had specific circumstances that need addressing, these crimes need to have that aspect understood too.

However, none of that makes it true to say that Pakistani men are more likely to commit these crimes than any other ethnic group.

And I'll point out this: From the national audit on group based CSA and abuse dated January this year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse-accessible

With particular reference to this:

"The appalling lack of data on ethnicity in crime recording alone is a major failing over the last decade or more. Questions about ethnicity have been asked but dodged for years. Child sexual exploitation is horrendous whoever commits it, but there have been enough convictions across the country of groups of men from Asian ethnic backgrounds to have warranted closer examination.

Instead of examination, we have seen obfuscation. In a vacuum, incomplete and unreliable data is used to suit the ends of those presenting it. The system claims there is an overwhelming problem with White perpetrators when that can’t be proved. This does no one any favours at all, and least of all those in the Asian, Pakistani or Muslim communities who needlessly suffer as those with malicious intent use this obfuscation to sow and spread hatred"

I've just posted a link you may want to look at.

From the national audit on group-based child sexual exploitation and abuse.

These 2 sentences are very significant:

"Child sexual exploitation is horrendous whoever commits it, but there have been enough convictions across the country of groups of men from Asian ethnic backgrounds to have warranted closer examination."

And : "The system claims there is an overwhelming problem with White perpetrators when that can’t be proved"

I'm not cherry picking as you can read the whole thing but it's very clear in it's entirety that there is enough evidence to suggest men of Asian ethnic backgrounds are significant in the data and nothing to prove white offenders are overwhelmingly represented.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-59435616?post=asset:6883e3b4-0178-4e8e-8be1-9ec3cb88fc04

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0e43nxpepno.amp

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/gateshead-grooming-gang-found-guilty-32673171.amp

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/2126478/romanian-grooming-gang-rapists-jailed?int_source=mantis_rec_top&int_medium=web&int_campaign=more_like_this_top

Both are idiots. I don’t really care. 🤷‍♀️

Are you going to comment on my posts that proved from the government itself that there is a definite problem with CSA gangs of Asian heritage and your assertion that most of the gangs are white has not been proven?

Apart from Epstein which really isn't the sort of offender we're talking about in regards to grooming gangs operating in the UK by non-British offenders.

Your 2nd link was a gang who abused one victim, not systematic grooming and abuse of many.

And your 3rd and 4th links were okay, white but not white British but Albanian and Romanian criminal gangs who'd taken adv

What a thing to say. Well done for highlighting your classism and snobbery. The only people who appear narrow minded and lacking in intelligent thought are those who make comments like yours. You might want to start reading the btl comments in the guardian - mass immigration and rapid demographic change is not so fondly regarded by many from the middle/ upper classes as it once was either. Or do they join your ' thicko ', uneducated pile too? How about Cambridge educated John cleese, is he a bit lacking in intellect?

Sorry, it stopped me from editing.

Albanian and Romanian criminal gangs raping white British girls which is really supporting concerns about asylum and immigration which is what this thread is about - Reform and other candidates being against a system which allows criminals and rapists to come to the UK and commit crimes.

I really think you're making a fool of yourself here

Well, you're right that there are some Oxbridge educated racists. Sadly, that won't be a massive surprise to any of us who studied in Oxford or Cambridge. There were plenty of misogynists and homophobes too, sadly. And contrary to what some on this thread seem to believe, they certainly weren't all working class so I'm not really sure where that stereotype has come from.

When you look at the bigger picture though, education levels do actually correlate quite strongly with voting patterns. And whether you like it or not, being more educated does make you less likely to vote for Reform, and vice versa.

I really don't understand why it is considered classist to assume that not all racists are working class and not all working class people are racist. Isn't it deeply offensive to working class people to dismiss racism as just a class issue?

I don’t think education levels mean that much beyond seeing it cited on mn. People bring their own experiences to the decision and everyone gets a vote.

Well, statistics do tend to disagree

yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election

Experience mean nothing to the sneering degree holders on MN.

A lot genuinely couldn’t understand growing up in poverty or doing a ‘dirty job’. It’s easier to sneer at the working class rather than listen to their fears and try to work on policies to help assist them.

It’s very interesting that Labour started as a party for the working man and are now more favoured by degree holders.

You could say they’ve forgotten their core demographic which has opened the door for parties like Reform. This should be looked into more.

I am working class, and I still genuinely don’t understand what fears someone would have regarding immigration that are specific to the working class.

If immigration is a problem, why would it be (allegedly) a working class problem, and not an everyone problem?

You can be working class and go to university 😂

Tbh as a brown person, I don’t really care at this point what his motives are, what happened to those girls is appalling. I’m getting increasingly pissed off with the attitude of “we need to care more about whether we like the person exposing injustice than the actual injustice itself”. For whatever reason, in this particular thing he’s doing gods work, anyone who’s read anything these women have said about the abuse and torture they suffered would have a bit more sympathy for them rather than the smug, self congratulatory tone we see here.

The behaviour around the match in Birmingham indicates people are still tiptoeing around racial sensitivities. The best way to have a society that is cohesive is if everyone is policed exactly the same. We aren’t there and Labours ridiculous Islamaphobia laws will just make this worse.

I wouldn’t be voting either reform (they initially wanted to remove the 2 child tax credit cap, fundamentally disagree with more welfare expansion) or for respect but I think some of the reactions to either of those parties is hysterical.

Also the way we fund the NHS meeds massive reforms, thats just a fact, the current system is sucking up money and not delivering. Something has to change there.

People keep saying WC people are being suckered by reform yet Labour has broken many a manifesto promise or sprung stuff that wasn’t in the manifesto. If anyones a sucker here it’s anyone who voted for Labour…right?

Growing up in poverty has nothing to do with immigrants and everything to do with successive governmental decisions, and billionaires who want to keep getting richer at the expense of poorer people because when people are miserable and angry, it’s easier to punch down at easy targets than to challenge power.

If you’re concerned about poverty then nothing Farage or Lowe have proposed or hinted at will change that, only make it worse. Immigration is being weaponised for political ends and it’s a tale as old as time.

Probably competition for low paid jobs is the assumption. Labours helpful minimum wage legislation and NI changes have already destroyed a bunch of part time jobs. Estimates of 100k-250k jobs lost since the budget.