To think Lowe is going to wipe the floor with Farage?

[BlueJuniper94]

Just that. AIBU to think this is the end of Farage?

I don’t know if it’s true but the rumour has been doing the rounds online today and he only announced he was forming a party last night so who knows.

I’m also not convinced they would be willing to collaborate but I wouldn’t put anything past them either. They’re all power hungry and it might be the only way. Have to wait and see.

It’s unlikely to be the end of Farage. He basically is reform and what people are voting for. Most of the UK population couldn’t pick Lowe out from a line up when asked.

We’re basically going to end up with Restore/Advance/UKIP/EDF/BNP like party which will appeal to a very small number of people split between those parties depending on how much they would like other people not to think of them as a racist.
Reform - not quite so far right but made up of the further right and genuinely insane MPs from the Tory Party.
Reclaim - Lawrence Fox having a breakdown and doing god knows what
Tories - a broader church but further right than 10-20 years ago consisting of a more right wing that are not actually insane and some one nation Tories who are just biding their time and sitting this period out.

someone is making quite a lot of money from these limited companies that are being set up as political parties. I’m assuming it won’t be the voters.

Pretty sure restore and alliance were both set up last summer when Habib and Lowe split from reform. Possible that it may not have been as a political party then for some reason but I did have a sense of Deja by when I heard the news this morning. Because I thought he already had set up a party called restore.

Its truly amazing how per capita is always ignored.

ordinary working-class people's concerns There are 'ordinary working class people' who hold a wide variety of views, stop claiming that all working class people think the same thing.

Im basing what I said on personal experience of growing up around Pakistani men, and on the testimony of victims.
Thst article notes thst “ group based” means 2 or more perpetrators. It’s also notes that around half of perpetrators are children themselves.
It also includes abuse within families (which of course is rife)
What people are talking about with the grooming gangs is systematic, organised abuse, spanning years, and ignored and in some cases abetted by the very authorities who were paid to protect children. There is a lot of evidence that these authorities were afraid to name the problem, which enables the continuation.
It’s a specific problem. Saying “ it’s not true, look other races abuse too” is part of the problem. The fact that people are not allowed to say what they see is fuelling these nonsense parties.
Any form of systematic, organised abuse of children, whether in children’s homes or the Catholic Church needs to be named, and stopped. The fear of saying the unsayable is why the priests got away with it for so long.
I am on no one’s side here apart from children’s.

It's so very disturbing that you don't want people to talk about or be concerned about CSA when Religion and culture so obviously played a part in not just the abuse but the lack of acting on it by authorities due to fears of accusations of Racism.

And act as if people just ignore CSA perpetrated by white offenders.

When they don't.

And as someone already said, you don't understand population data.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue with the way Pakistani grooming gangs were dealt with (or not) but to suggest that perpetrators are overwhelmingly Pakistani is not true. It's not even close to being true.

It is truly amazing that you think per capita is a reliable statistic.They don’t reliably publish nationality or ethnicity and the same offender can be recorded multiple times in the statistics anyway. It doesn’t mean that each recorded crime has been committed by a separate person.

Okay, you keep putting your fingers in your ears and pretend there isn’t an issue or a race angle.

Billionaires and those in power have also been caught trafficking white girls (Epstein Files) and yet that evidence hasn’t been ignored.

When there are trends to crimes (or group tendencies) then it doesn’t do any good to ignore it due to the distastefulness it brings to our world view - irrespective of political leaning.

All they are doing is diluting the reform voters between the two parties.

both men are racist and abhorrent people but Lowe is worse because he is allowing Elon Musk to try & ‘buy’ the UK.

I don’t know how anyone can vote for either of them

I never said that most perpetrators of child sex abuse are Pakistani!?
I said there was and is a systematic and organised and ignored problem of men of Pakistani origin grooming and raping girls in towns and cities up and down the country.
And that in many cases these girls have been thrown to the wolves by stupid or brainwashed social workers.
People who are very angry about this fact want action not obsfucation. THAT is what the far right are being fed by.

What do you mean exactly when you say that the evidence around the Epstein trafficking hasn't been ignored? What consequences have the men involved in that trafficking actually faced?

Yes, Epstein killed himself, but the others? A bit of mild embarrassment, perhaps? Andrew no longer gets to call himself a prince and had to move out of his mansion?

I would say that the evidence has been thoroughly ignored for decades, and the perpetrators have suffered no real consequences.

And the current POTUS has openly boasted about how he can get away with sexually assaulting women without consequence. It didn't stop him from getting elected.

Theres an active FBI investigation. Maxwell is in prison. Mandelson is under police investigation. The files have been released (albeit more redacted than most of us would like).

There isn’t the same fear of discussion as there has been around the Asian rape gangs is my point. There isn’t the same level of denial either.

Any group or demographic attacking children needs to be called out.

Many of the Asian grooming gang perpetrators have now been prosecuted. Yes, the girls should have been listened to much, much earlier and it's shocking that these crimes were allowed to continue for so long. But it isn't unique.

The Epstein survivors were dismissed for many years as well. These issues have been known about for many years. Why is the FBI only investigating now, and why have no other men faced prosecution yet?

The fact is, the only person currently serving a prison sentence in relation to Epstein's extensive trafficking operation is a woman.

Mandelson isn't being investigated in relation to the trafficking of women at all, but in relation to misconduct in a public office due to the leaking of confidential government documents.

You can try to argue that Asian men have been allowed to get away with rape and abuse in a way that white men haven't, but the facts simply don't support this.

This is a problem of misogyny, not of race. Women and girls raising concerns about abuse have been systematically dismissed and ignored for many decades, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators. Think back to the whole "me too" movement. This is not just about brown men.

Very well said - you raise excellent and valid points that are largely ignored

Thank you for your polite debate.

We are not going to agree.

You said,

"The grooming/ rape gangs involve mainly the systematic, organised abuse of children over the span of decades, aided and abetted by useful idiots in social services and police and are overwhelmingly made up of networks of men of Pakistani heritage."

To which I point out again:
In terms of group-based offences, 85% of suspects are white, while 7% are Asian and 5% are black.

I absolutely agree that victims have been badly let down and that needs to be dealt with. And yes, there was a particular issue with how the Pakistani gangs were not held accountable as they should have been. But that is not the same thing as saying that the grooming gangs are overwhelmingly Pakistani.

It is reasonable to want people to be held accountable for crimes they have committed. It is not reasonable to describe one ethnicity as being overwhelmingly responsible for committing a crime when they are actually only a small percentage of the perpetrators of that crime.

Who said it was specifically Asian and Pakistani gangs they're only worried about?

I don't think anyone did but the constant deflectors from it disturb me.

Are you concerned about this?

Where Religion and culture was used to rape girls not from that demographic?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-30078503.amp

"The court heard some were persuaded to have sex with other gang members as they were told by the gang it was Somali "culture and tradition" and "men always have sex with each other's girlfriends"..

What about Laura Wison, a 17 year old deemed to be the 1st UK white girl a victim of 'honour killing'.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/29/canal-murder-mother-not-prevented

The Judge said her murderer "treated white girls as sexual targets and not as human beings".

Her sister Sarah was systematically raped and abused by Asian men for years from the age of 11 . At one point her Mother went to the Police with her mobile phone which had the numbers of 177 adult Asain men who were involved in raping her and other girls.

https://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/rotherham/index.html

No, its not all Asian or Pakistani grooming gangs or Muslim but many of the perpetrators used similar Religious and cultural reasons for coercing the girls into being raped by other men and yes, there are White perpetrators but when Religion and culture is used to groom and rape girls do you not think that is quite specific and needs to not be filed away under 'well white men groom and rape, stop being racist talking about the non-white ones'.

They don't 'have' to arrive at all.

And international law is a joke. It is not fit for purpose when only a handful of countries actually abide by it and those that do are deliberately exploited and disadvantaged by those that don't. Time to ignore it when it suits us, just like almost everyone else.

Hmm, note how right wingers never have much to say about white grooming gangs, white rapists / paedo's. Has he worked tirelessly to highlight their abuse too?

Looking at the percentages quoted in my post:
85% of suspects are white, 82% of the England and Wales population is white

So there are more white offenders than would be expected as a percentage.

while 7% of suspects are Asian, 9% of the England and Wales population is Asian.

So there less Asian offenders than would be expected as a percentage.

I'm not sure how you think per capita is going to change the picture.

I haven't noticed the right wingers expressing much concern about their mate Donald Trump either, despite the multiple allegations of rape and his own boasting about sexual assault. Quite the contrary, they seem to admire the guy.

How is Elon Musk buying the UK?
That sounds worrying

I thought he supported Advance but I guess I got that wrong

I'll have to Google him, I don't know who he is.