To emigrate knowing it will devastate my mum?

[tangotingo]

I’m breaking my heart over this as I know deep down I want to go but it will break my mum’s heart.

Been with my partner 4 years, we are engaged to be married next year. I’m pregnant with our first baby. I’m British, partner is from Eastern Europe and his family have settled all over the place (he has relatives in Canada, his home country, Germany and Scandinavia).

His younger sister lives in Germany and has lived there a few years now. She has a partner. They are settled in a lovely small town there which is very safe. They only work hospitality jobs there but have a lower cost of living - they live off one partner’s wage and save the rest. They are considering moving to Hamburg for more job opportunities. They are at a very similar age and life stage to us and are also expecting their first baby. There is a particular industry in Hamburg which is very big and similar to what my partner does for work in the UK, don’t want to go into more detail as it’s quite niche but we’ve seen that one particular large firm encourages foreigners to apply if they have a relevant skillset. I would struggle a bit more as my skills are administrative/customer service so I’d likely end up being a stay-at-home parent whilst learning German. My job in the UK is only a call centre role so it’s not like I’d be giving up a career, so I’m willing to do it so long as we can afford to live. Partner’s sister is confident you can live on one wage over there, and also says she knows a firm that is easy to get into without speaking German as she has helped friends from her own country get in there, so she says she could help us get in their initially if we wanted whilst we’re settling.

I feel, probably quite selfishly, that there is nothing for me in the UK. My parents had me in their 40s, I’m in my 20s now and they are in their 60s. They are full-time carers to my autistic brother who is 25 and they refuse to take any steps to prepare him for the fact that they won’t always be around. He is verbal but doesn’t work, he doesn’t even have a mobile phone as he refuses one and they just accept it. My dad is a hoarder and I hate visiting their home as it stresses me out. I have half-siblings on my dad’s who are 20 years older than me and don’t care about me despite my efforts to have a relationship (I’ve attempted to meet them on their birthdays etc to not even receive a text on mine).

I have dealt with so much anxiety over the years about how care for my parents and brother is likely to all fall on to me in the future as my parents age (my half siblings have no interest). I live an hour drive away as when I met my partner I moved to a different city to be with him. We can’t move to my parent’s city as my partner’s industry doesn’t exist there. I feel absolutely stifled by thoughts of the future. Due to my parents age and being carers they won’t be able to offer me any practical support with my baby. Since I moved an hour away 3 years they’ve visited me less than a handful of times.

Due to large age gaps with my siblings and the fact that my partner has no family in the UK, my child will have no cousins to grow up with except for kids my partner’s sister will have in Germany. I recently have been crying my eyes out as I’ve realised nobody in my family deserves to be godparents to my child, nobody gives a shit enough. We’ve already decided godparents will be partners sister and her partner.

Me and my partner are so lonely and desperate to be around people in a similar life stage. He was quite depressed his last birthday as it fell during a heatwave and he wanted to have a BBQ and realised there was just nobody to really invite so we didn’t bother. It’s getting to him now we’re having a child I think.

Our part of the UK is incredibly rough and our car was stolen a few months ago. I hate the UK rainy grey weather and get seasonal depression, I know Germany is hardly a hot country but the UK is particularly bad due to being an island and we’ve enjoyed many lovely summer BBQs and outdoor parties when visiting Germany previously. I’ve always said no to my partner when he’s suggested moving as I feel bad leaving my parents, but since becoming pregnant I’ve started to want to prioritise baby more and I feel they will be better off if we go to Germany. I only really want 1 child but feel pressure to have 2 if we stay in the UK as I feel the child will be lonely, but it’s different if they will have cousins which they will have in Germany. My, my partner, my partner’s sister and her partner will all be able to support each other.

We have the money to emigrate and get settled - £25,000 in savings. This was originally meant to be a house deposit in the UK but every time we’ve found a home we’ve had to pull out due to the house having major damp issues. Every house in our budget is awful and requires major renovation works. We’ve essentially given up.

I have decided I want to go, I know it won’t be easy to find a rental and jobs etc but I want to at least start the process even if it takes a couple of years. Due to my partner’s EU citizenship I can tag along with him to get residency. I think it’s best for me, my partner and the baby. But I know it will break my mums heart. Can anyone give any insight please? Just to add as well they won’t be able to visit me at all as they are poor, and my dad and brother refuse to travel and mum refuses to leave them.

Mum was worried when I first starting dating someone from another country and said from day 1 “please don’t emigrate.”

Am I a selfish cow?

Nothing to do with what other people think, just commenting on my friends/acquaintances have felt wrt their own families. Most people who have close or even fairly close families care about each other and want to support each other.

The OP's problems aren't mainly related to the UK. In leaving the UK and giving up work and having a child, she would face a lot more problems than she currently has! The OP does not appear to have considered these factors fully, which is why lots of people are pointing them out.

LIfe doesn’t stop because you are pregnant. She has a plan for the birth here and to move after so any issues can mean the plan changes/gets pushed back. This is something that she has thought out. Her partner can get a good job there. Germany is a safe country. They have connections there. She is not earning much where she is and can afford to move without a job. She can learn the language and English will get her by short (and probably long term) term. Importantly, she is not happy where she is and thinks this might make her happy. So on that basis I say try. If it doesn’t work out she can come back. She knows her own situation enough to know that this sounds worth exploring. So I think do that. My best friend moved to Spain, met her partner, had kids there. I’m not seeing why being pregnant means she can’t do something. It means she needs to have options to return home if needed, but beyond that, I do think live life the way you want. Have adventures.

Being demonstrably more conservative than people in the UK isn't an insult - it's an observation based on my own interactions with East Europeans over 30 years so not a short period of time.

Poland, to take one example, significantly restricted its abortion laws in 2021 to now only cover cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is in danger.

You cannot get an abortion in Poland if you don't want or can't afford another child or even in the case of fetal abnormalities.

That's pretty regressive for women compared to most Western European countries.

Exactly, there's reasons the AFD have sadly surged.

That really wasn't popular with many Poles though, especially younger and more urban voters.

I see. And they seemed 'hyper conservative'- expecting their wives to be SAHM? Being controlling? That's sad if so..

I’m not ignoring anything. I just don’t consider any of the issues insurmountable, or as anything that makes remaining in a country she doesn’t want to be in a better option for her.

Could things go wrong? Sure. They could also go very right. Staying in the UK could be her greatest regret.

Germans vary widely, from region to region. A Bavarian tends to be quite different to a Prussian, for example. Ime the Hanseatic cities are very international, and she may find Low German easier to grasp than standard or high German.

Košice has about 250k people — it’s not really comparable to London or Birmingham. Smaller cities with pedestrianised historic centres tend to feel calmer. UK city centres also concentrate nightlife and heavy pub culture in a way many Central European cities don’t. But “bedlam everywhere at 9pm” feels a bit exaggerated — there are loads of UK neighbourhoods where families are out in the evenings too.

I understand your neighbourhood is very hard & I think Hamburg is a good idea.

You are not at all unreasonable to want to emigrate.

However please research this thoroughly. Having heard from friends who lived in and around Hamburg about how insanely expensive it was, how shockingly difficult to find a flat to rent, and how hideous the weather was, I'm concerned that the info you reference in your OP contained none of the above. Make sure you've done some proper research and then of course move wherever you want, definitely not unreasonable or selfish to do so.

What have they done about it since?
Nothing.
Why not?
It's a conservative country.

Poland is Central European, and Catholic. Eastern Europe is predominantly Orthodox.

When it comes to abortion laws, Poland is also unusual within Europe as a whole.

"I’m sure OP has and will consider the many factors involved in emigration."

Where did you get that impression?

She’s an adult woman that has experience of living abroad, that is clear in what she does and doesn’t want from life.

That she doesn’t share your opinion doesn’t mean she hasn’t considered what she needs to regarding emigration. Your conclusion isn’t the ‘right’ one she has to come to in order to not be considered ignorant.

OP can't be her parents' back-up plan.
The guilt is awful, but she does have to live her own life. Moving to Germany sounds like a lovely fresh start. Good luck!

Have I missed something? What experience does the OP have of living abroad? What is clear?
With respect, she doesn't seem to have considered things carefully. What comes across to me is that both she and her partner are unhappy, very unhappy about not having lots of family support in particular but also about other things. She isn't, for example, a fluent German speaker who has been offered a great job in Hamburg, alongside her partner, who has also been offered a great opportunity or a married woman with a German partner. These situations would be different.

The unhappiness of the partner is definitely an issue, as is the seasonal affective disorder which is not going to be improved in a German winter. German summer is idyllic but that's the winters are tough.

You say your partner is depressed? He needs to deal with that if he's going to be a father. In my observation depressive partners do not get better with time, particularly if they are also drinkers, which I don't know is the case here.

I would try Hamburg but I would also be thinking about therapy and mental health care for both of you because that does not change with geography.

What?? Loads of Gen Z Poles voted for the Tusk gov. It's not their fault he hasn't followed his promises. Many are angry he didn't bring in civil partnerships also. There have been huge protests about abortion, especially from young women.

It's a bit like US states like Carolina that have crazily strict abortion laws, often with no rape exceptions even, since Roe fell.. Most Poles didn't want such a strict law.

https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/02/02/half-of-public-support-tusks-aim-to-introduce-abortion-on-demand-in-poland-find-polls/

https://www.moreincommon.com/media/l3bbnene/eng_raport_mic_05-03-2024-1.pdf

Re Catholic vs Orthodox, Orthodox countries can be very conservative too. Otoh EE isn't all super religious,, Czechia is pretty secular, for one, and many Poles esp younger ones want the Church to have less influence. The abuse etc scandals have damaged it badly.

Sorry, OP, don't want to derail!

I’m sorry your area feels depressing — that can really affect how you see the country. But England’s pretty varied. There are cramped terraces as in your area,, but there are also wide leafy suburbs, historic cities, and rural areas that look completely different. It might be more about regional inequality than “England” as a whole.

(Also it's true England’s terraces and narrow streets are mostly 19th-century urban design — Germany rebuilt a lot after WWII so it naturally looks more planned and spacious.)

It’s also worth noting: Germany has very visible east–west divides, shrinking towns, Plattenbau estates, and deprived districts too. This isn't an England only thing.

I get wanting to move to a different place though, and Hamburg sounds like a great choice.

Go on ‘read all’. She lived in Canada. She’s clearly not incapable, or unfamiliar with what emigration involves.

She’s unhappy with her family situation, but she’s also unhappy living in the UK.

They can be, not so much when it comes to abortion though. You’re right though, there is significant opposition within Poland to the restrictive laws, but the Catholic Church unfortunately wields political influence there. The government knows full well that it’s common for women to buy pills or go to Germany to access abortion services, and that’s more convenient for them (the government, that is) than liberalizing the law in Poland.

Religion is a complex one. In the Balkans it’s very tied into national and cultural identity, rather than actual belief (Serbs are Orthodox, Croats are Catholic, Bosniaks are Muslim).

Going back to cultural variation, using Serbia as an example as I’m from there, Beograd is very different to Vojvodina/Novi Sad (Austro-Hungarian), which is again very different to Niš (Ottoman). There’s huge variation, and it’s not exactly a big country.

Thanks, that's really interesting re Serbia. I'd begun to investigate the Austrian Empire and I'd like to find out more about the Balkans. What you say is similar to Poland too : Catholicism partly became stronger in the 1800s etc as a means of consolidating national identity during partition by Russia.

I agree re the Church. Hopefully their influence is collapsing a bit. It would be good to retain the positive elements but this situation right now is awful.

I’d probably go.
But I’d get married first, possibly without a “wedding” or have a small celebration - don’t use your savings.

I’d go into it thinking

• learn German
• don’t pin all your social hopes on one couple - actively pursue friendships in Hamburg - go to all the mum and baby things you can, speak to your neighbours, watch German news, learn all about the place
• that you will get a job when time is right, to help you settle
• you can fly back from Hamburg to visit parents - I find it more expensive than I imagined, but I need rental car when back and I try to use minimal annual leave but it ends up being our holiday every year
• your family situation will be no different further away
• weather similar

I moved country at 18 and I only felt like I “belonged” and am from here about 15 years in, I’m now here 25 years. There was no language barrier. My husband’s family are here. My kids have “local” names, are in school, I work etc. It took longer than I expected. Now if we were to separate I’d stay here.

Yes. I miss living on the continent and being able to take trains to other countries!

I don’t know if it’s because we’re an island, or something else, but I think a lot of people in the UK just aren’t open to living abroad. Yes the bureaucracy can be frustrating but the benefits far outweigh that. And if it doesn’t work out you can just move home or somewhere else.

it’s so sad to think about what we gave up with Brexit.

I would, though, start learning the language now. You’ll use it on holiday there anyway. And given you’re having a child pop down to the registry office and get hitched. Unromantic I know but whether you move or not it’s prudent.

good luck x

Thanks. I hadn't read most of the OP's posts, just the first few.
Having looked at the last page, she does seem to have thought about her possible decision more than came across in the initial first posts, which gave the general impression of someone who is unhappy and looking to escape. Her parents also sound narrow minded and seem to want to restrict her, which she obviously resents (understandably).
I have to admit that I would still be giving the same advice that I have given if she were my own DD as the move would make her very dependent on her DP in every way. If she does go, I would encourage her to work too, make a big effort with the language and to make friends so that she is less dependent.