"I'm failing in my duty as a middle class parent by not making DC play an instrument"

[ToothSmush]

This is what a friend said to me (in jest, but it has hit a nerve), when I said that the DC don't get any music lessons.

AIBU to not force the DC into playing an instrument?

This friend has different DC playing flute, guitar, drums etc and expressed suprise when I said I was being led by my DC. They haven't shown much interest in music but are mad keen on football so that is their main extra curricular activity.

Is it true that most middle class parents gently force their DC to play an instrument because of all the social advantages it brings?

Part of this is because I was forced to play the piano as a child, only doing grades - and hated having to play the same classical pieces for months at a time. I gave up as a teen, but ironically I have rediscovered the joy of the piano in middle age and now love trying to play music that I l actually like! I can only do this because I learnt the basics as a child.

So maybe I'm doing the DC a disservice by not forcing them?

Maybe that's because you're not very good at it though, rather than the act of playing music being inherently unimpressive? 🤪

We’ve already had the “does it matter for university” debate on the thread. It can do. I’ve already posted (several times) about someone I know where it made the difference between missing their first choice uni place and not.

More generally, some unis (I can confirm Cambridge, but I expect others too) are interested because performing at a very high level in something (anything) extracurricular while also getting the top grades that are required is a good indication that the student will be able to cope with the intense workload when they get there.

My mum always wanted to learn to play the piano. My grandparents simply couldn´t afford it. So she went without. When I was about 6 or 7 she asked me if I wanted piano classes. If I had had the vocab back then I would´ve answered Hell No! Can´t think of anything worse. I don´t have musical talent, no vocation, was never even interested in playing a tune on my brother´s recorder. Boring.
My brother´s best friend was forced to go to conservatory and play the violin, when he was about 15 he would detour to our house and play video games with my brother. He was sick to the back teeth of the damned violin. Parents, please don´t project your frustrations on your kids. You go and play the violin if you are so obsessed by it!

Unfortunately in this country, learning an instrument is very expensive and it’s hard to access good quality tuition. Sport and music should be taught to a high standard at school but they are not and that’s why many middle class’ parents encourage them as extracurriculars. Music is just an intrinsic part of a good education. It’s also one of those things that isn’t necessarily immediately fun. You have to get to a certain level before you can enjoy making music. IMO one of the problems is that people don’t take it seriously enough. You need take time to choose the instrument that speaks to the child, find a really good teacher and help with daily practice. I learned the hard way that if you just send your kid to any old teacher on any old instrument and don’t support practice, they will get little out of it unless they are naturally extremely talented or motivated. So it will appear to have been a waste of time or not something they enjoyed or you will conclude that your kid isn’t musical.

Obviously though properly supporting musical education at home requires time, money, commitment, patience and sadly isn’t doable for many.

Learning to swim and learning the piano were the two things I wanted DS to do as I felt they were the two most useful things I did outside school as a child.

I didn't know when he started them that he was dyspraxic, but both of them helped him so much with coordination particularly, but also with concentration, memory, core strength, flexibility and endurance.

They're certainly the two extra curriculars I'd recommend for any child even though he stopped both of them long before he was applying for uni's.

DS(17) was never really into team sports, but has dabbled with some individual ones. But he has loved playing music since a ukulele after school club when he was 8. He plays in several ensembles, performs in public performances several times a year, sings and has just taken his G7 Classical Guitar. Music has been a massive part of his life for 10 years. All driven by him. No forcing, just support.

Not to be outdone, DD(14) does music and sport. Again, no forcing, just support.

Parents, please don´t project your frustrations on your kids. You go and play the violin if you are so obsessed by it!

I agree with this.

So much projection by people - playing the piano was so important for me, I wanted my kids to do it, or I always wanted to so I made my kids.

Your kids aren't you, they are their own people.

I got the most out of drama as a child. I was shy but it taught me a lot about how to project and stand and gave me confidence. But I don't think it's the right choice for my kids.

My kids benefit a lot from sports - their mood is a lot better after playing sports, but they need different sports. Older one likes a team sport, younger one individual sport.

You have to parent the child you have, not yourself as a child.

my husband plays the flute: the silver one and the irish one on wood. It s his way of relaxing after a long day of work.

i was forced to ay the piano, then stopped the. Started again. I am crap at it but i love voices and piano is my favourite instrument to listen to. I love classical music as well as other type of music.

so we started off the kids for 2 reasons.

1. my eldest asked to play the piano age 6 - i was never going to force them
2. then I kept them at it because music is on thr same side of the brain as maths so for brain development it s good.
3. and they still loved it so we kept at it

never pushed fir grades. Now my girls (ine is piano and the other is voice) want to stop but all the advices i got including my husband is too keep paying for lessons because the love will come back because it was there at the beginning. So we will see what will do next year.

my advice is try and see. Age 17 every now and again i see her sitting at her piano and sometimes loosing herself. Music is fabulous relaxant / anti depressant

That’s reminded me of a funny line from The Inbetweeners movie - where they are sat on a beach around a bonfire and some starts to play and one boy says to the other “there’s always some cuwt with a guitar to ruin things”

I don’t agree with the statement but it made me laugh

I think it’s wonderful OP, that you are letting your kids find their own passions.

I took music all the way up to professional level, so am by no means against music. However I think there is huge snobbery around music lessons in childhood that there isn’t around so many other equally beneficial creative pursuits, like doing art or writing stories or whatever….. yes, music lessons can be a great discipline and some kids will enjoy it. But honestly, I think a huge number of kids find them boring and a drudgery, with often rubbish, joyless teachers, costing parents a bunch of money, dragging the children unthinkingly through one grade syllabus after another until giving up finally around grade 4-5, with very little gained and much time and money lost…. All so parents can say “oh yes, little Sally plays the flute”.

yes, it’s important that kids learn self discipline - but they are already being dragged through school, homework, and any other form of skill building for that. Yes, it is important for kids to engage in some way with arts/creativity/the expression of emotion. But there are countless ways kids can do that- and easier in fact. You really don’t get a lot of time or space for true emotional engagement through musical expression until at least grade five (often about 5-7years’ work). Compare that to the self expression and sensibility kids can enjoy and grow through with writing stories or painting or dancing…. Far less plagued by the rigidity of classical music training - which is actually 90% about discipline and following rules and getting the notes right, and reading key signatures etc, and only 10% about artistic expression in the early years. Music lessons for improv/general engagement etc have more potential for freedom, but kids hopefully get that at school anyway.

so I would say expose your kids to music, along with all other pursuits, enough for them to get a feel. Unless they display an exceptional ‘fit’ and desire for it, then don’t put themselves or yourself through the drudgery. If they do seem to really resonate with music, then keep your mind open about what kind. My DD really ddidn’t go for the classical music stuff, but self selected bass guitar, taught herself rock tunes, formed her own band, and organises and little concerts for her band at school….. now she’s collaborating with a friend making up lyrics for new songs…that’s been amazing for her… socially, creatively, expressively and in terms of organisational skills….She still can’t read music and has never done a grade exam. But it’s hers, and she couldn’t have found that if she’d been forced to do flute lessons for five years.

keep helping your kids find themselves!

It is useful to have one "beautiful" hobby or skill. It can be art as painting or clay, music, dance, something like that.
Getting some skill allows you to enjoy that form more as a consumer of an experience, and it is good to have something like that for life.

I'm not in the UK and from what I see on MN, grades took over music there. I understand that grades are what creates the worth for the CV, but it feels like too much standardisation.

My cousin is a music teacher, she adapts popular music for her students to play and learn technique while doing so. Grades or not-grades approach is agreed between her and the family.
When we were teens, we were national level for chamber groups - and we had a great teacher who was able to mix classical pieces with modern for us.

I think playing an instrument is a middle class endeavour very often because of the cost and also the parental influence often comes because the parents themselves learned an instrument.

My kids play an instrument because my parents wouldn’t finance lessons for me and I am living vicariously through my children 🤣

I agree, and I say that as someone who played musical instruments as a child and ( mostly enjoyed it).
Even then I was aware of who the snobs and pushy parents were and tended to avoid some of their children!

I blinked at this and then realised that I'm probably unusual in having met DH at an event at which he was the entertainment.

He's a flautist.

Big effect on our lives, and our kids.

I actually worked with a leading early years creative expert in a government project, and her perspective was that apart from the technical aspects of specific crafts (e.g. brush work, vs instrument techniques, vs vocal practice etc), it actually just matters that a child has creative opportunities in any medium.

So whilst she was obviously an advocate for music, art, drama etc, we were developing a framework that was medium-agnostic.

I'm curious - what are the social advantages of playing music if you don't enjoy it (i.e. you are being forced to do it)?

My mum forced me to learn how to play the piano and i really hated it. It dominated my life as a child as i really struggled to learn a new piece of music.

Are you really curious, or just trying to make a pass ag remark?

I don’t think anyone has said that kids should be made to do things they don’t enjoy, but many have pointed out the (obvious point) that music can provide lots of opportunities to socialise with other children through orchestras, bands and other music groups.

I had friends at school who were pretty terrible musicians, but there was always a space for them at the back of the second violins in the orchestra/10th clarinet in the concert band at school, and everyone was super keen to join those things because they got to skip boring tutor group for rehearsals and/or go on tour as a group. Much in the same way as kids who might not be football-obsessed may still get a lot out of playing for a football team.

Both of mine tried all sorts of hobbies as children but didn’t stick with any of them. One of my children actually has potential musical talent- superb singing voice and a really good ear for music. But she wasn’t interested so what can you do?

I am actually curious. I don't disagree at all that there are benefits to learning to play a music instrument. I was asking about forcing an unwilling child to do it (this relates to sports too) as I don't think I'm clued in about the benefits of it. That was what the OP's post was about.

I think it should be child dependant/child led. No forcing should be happening, I played violin as a child and because I was naturally good at it I was pretty much forced in to carrying on with it well past the point of enjoying it. I haven't picked a violin up in over 20 years and probably never will. I do wish I'd learnt piano though.

Dd1 had no interest in music, swimming was her thing

Dd2 briefly did gymnastics but really had no interest in clubs so didn't last long

Dd3 does several hours of musical theatre, singing lessons and she plays the french horn. She is one of those kids who throws herself wholeheartedly in to stuff and genuinely enjoys all of it.

Dd4 is only 5 but I'm hoping to get her in to piano lessons at some point. She currently does swimming and dancing which she loves

The word “forcing” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this thread.

The truth is, you can’t get much out of music without working at it. Eg you cannot play with others (the most enjoyable bit) until you have a basic level of competence. Most (all) children don’t like working at things that are not immediately easy. Children do need to be encouraged and supported past the early stages of difficulty before they can see progress and understand the rewards, and then get the intrinsic motivation themselves. That process is worthwhile in itself.

As I said earlier, to actually give a child the best chance of getting something out of it, the parent needs to help them by supervising say 10 mins a day of practice for 1 term. And if they don’t want to continue after that then by all means stop.

But so often parents think that it’s enough to book their kid in for some lessons, half heartedly remind them that they need to practise, the child pushes back because they’d rather watch tv, and parent decides that they didn’t have enough interest/talent/motivation and that’s the end of it. Parents very often also default to piano or violin when there are so many different instruments out there and some suit children very much more than others. I personally think piano is one of the worst instruments to start on but it’s one of the top choices.

utter nonsense. No one cares about that stuff once you’re an adult.

At that level, yes - neither of mine were at that level!

I don't disagree with any of this, but I think parents know best if their child doesn't have an interest in something. I have actually rarely (if at all) seen a parent who is happy to blindly pay for expensive music lessons without having some commitment to making sure their child gives it a go. But when it becomes obvious there really is not enough interest, I think the kind thing is to let go and perhaps redirect the energy somewhere else.