"I'm failing in my duty as a middle class parent by not making DC play an instrument"

[ToothSmush]

This is what a friend said to me (in jest, but it has hit a nerve), when I said that the DC don't get any music lessons.

AIBU to not force the DC into playing an instrument?

This friend has different DC playing flute, guitar, drums etc and expressed suprise when I said I was being led by my DC. They haven't shown much interest in music but are mad keen on football so that is their main extra curricular activity.

Is it true that most middle class parents gently force their DC to play an instrument because of all the social advantages it brings?

Part of this is because I was forced to play the piano as a child, only doing grades - and hated having to play the same classical pieces for months at a time. I gave up as a teen, but ironically I have rediscovered the joy of the piano in middle age and now love trying to play music that I l actually like! I can only do this because I learnt the basics as a child.

So maybe I'm doing the DC a disservice by not forcing them?

Neither of mine play an instrument but they do a lot of extra curricular activities and are both academic. I was forced to play various instruments, eventually settled on one and had to carry on until grade 8. I never played it again once after I left school. For me it was a complete and utter waste of time and not something I would push my children to do.

OK I know I will be going against the grain here but this is the MN hill I will die on. My DCs have played the piano for four years. At my instigation. I treat it like swimming, they have to go. They moaned a bit at first and still moan a bit now about practising. But I haven't let them give up.I have told them they can do any sports or club they want to but they must keep playing.

They are both now beautiful players and my eldest (who was less keen) actively wants to get better. I can see his self-esteem and joy when he plays because he can do it. My youngest played at school recently.

It's not easy learning and many kids want to give up with music. In my humble view though, most kids won't bother if you leave it to them. But I have met SO many adults who say they wished their parents had made them continue playing when they were young. I am of the view that you have to use the art of persuasion and help them get there.

Re what music brings - there is loads of research online about the neurocognitive benefits of learning an instrument.

I don’t know about middle class but I think that if you are fortunate enough to have enough disposable funds for extra-curricula's then the best thing to do is introduce your child(ren) to a range of things and then fully support the ones that end up being a good fit.

Both my kids have done pretty much everything over the years. A range of instruments, gymnastics, various dance forms, acting, art, every sport under the sun and probably more I’ve forgotten about.

DS did guitar for a few years but stopped enjoying it so we knocked it on the head. DD, it turns out, doesn’t have a musical bone in her body. They have continued with other things into teenage years that they love.

I'm really glad I was allowed to try different activities and decide for myself what I enjoyed and what I didn't, and my parents accepted this.

I enjoyed music for the years I did it but do not feel that I missed out because I wasn't forced to do it once i got sick of it, until adulthood.

I really don't think playing an instrument is in the same league as cleaning your teeth or eating your greens, in terms of general life importance. If you want to give it that significance that's your prerogative but its certainly not a universal viewpoint, and some people will judge you as being a pushy parent.

Its a bit patronising to suggest that learning an instrument is the only way to learn perseverance and skill development. This is the kind of mindset I was mocking in my post really, not the playing of an instrument per se, that playing an instrument is somehow just better than other activities. You say 'it's a question of priorities' but you sound like you think that, of course, your priorities are the correct ones!

I also think its sad and setting children up for anxiety to only encourage them in achievement-based activities. Becoming accomplished in a skill is not the only reason to do an activity- what happened to enjoyment? Im certainly not going to lie on my death bed and think 'oh I wish I'd spent more hours of my childhood practising that sodding violin'.

And the reason people think its 'middle class' is that playing an instrument, unlike playing football or doing street dance, is a 'class selector'. You are more likely to meet other middle class people doing a music activity than learning some other skills and I would have more respect for parents that just admit that that's partly why they encourage it so vehemently-they want little Timmy to make nice 'friends like us'.

Ime it's an important part of a rounded education and I agree with pps that for most children the only way music will be on their radar as a possible activity, rather than a thing that happens all around them done by other people, is if a parent takes an active role in introducing it and carving time out for practice at home.

There's some very interesting research being done now about the multiple effects that playing music, as opposed to just listening to it, has on neural connections. Playing music involves hand and body coordination, spatial awareness, listening skills, emotional expression and often includes learning about structured group dynamics. Children who play music pick up languages more quickly because they listen to sounds in a different way.

And that's all without even starting to think about the joy of playing a lovely melody for oneself or others.

The middle class idea is bollocks, tbh I'm surprised anyone still thinks like that. But music is a rich and rewarding activity and one where you reap dividends by starting young when the brain is still developing and able to store information flexibly (there's a lot of information storing that goes on to be able to memorise even ten simple tunes). So parental initiation, guidance and support is really important.

@AstonScrapingsNameChange Please read my other posts - I didn’t say music was the only way to learn certain skills, but it requires and involves so many different ones that it is a very efficient way of doing it.

You can achieve the same thing if your kid did chess (mental/academic) + foreign language (language/communication) + dance (rhythm/motor) + team sport (team/social/physical) + drama (performance/communication) and from a lot of those you also get discipline, stamina, resilience. But learning an instrument and playing it with other children ticks all of those in one.

Music is not an achievement-based activity either (unless you’re thinking of exams, which no one has to do) - it’s about the pleasure and joy of making music for and with others.

The middle class thing is absolute rubbish - reverse snobbery. I grew up on benefits with a single mum, had free lessons through school, music opened doors to me as a child and provided me with the most fulfilling and joyous times in my life and friends from all backgrounds. The reason it might be seen as middle class in England (I’m not from here) is because all the funding has been cut so that now it’s really only available to those who can afford to pay. And that is a disgrace!

Is that the case though? I had always thought that they were looking at the range of things you did showing that you were an interesting and well rounded individual etc blah blah, i.e. all the things you include in your personal statement bit as otherwise what else are they looking at other than your predicted grades. Obviously playing an instrument doesn’t have to be on there if there are plenty of other things, but I thought they were interested in this stuff.

Yanbu. Hobbies should be child-led imo.

I do think it's important for the child to have things that they do outside school which require practice and commitment, and which enable them to meet other people, but I don't think music lessons are inherently any better than other options.

My dd is actually very musical but showed zero interest whenever I asked if she wanted to learn an instrument. I didn't push it as I got very little out of my own music lessons as a child. DD's passion was for dance and drama instead. She did end up having singing lessons as teenager off the back of this, and she did some singing exams, but I don't think she missed out at all as a result of not learning an instrument. She is perfectly "well rounded" as an adult without having done so!

I think music lessons can offer many benefits to children who are interested. But those benefits aren't unique to musical instruments, and if the child wants to do something else instead, I see no point in forcing the issue.

I think US universities like this kind of thing, but UK universities don't really care.

I'm the opposite. As an adult, I really wish that my parents hadn't pushed me to spend so much time learning musical instruments that I didn't enjoy.

A friend said this to you? I fear she doesn't know what she's on about. I am a music teacher and yes it has wide reaching benefits, but as a parent I too am child led and see no point in forcing anything. The fundamental point of music is to enjoy it so if it's a battle, stop. A capable teacher will be able to make lessons fun but if DC doesn't want to get through the door anyway then, cool. I have 3 kids, one is too little but out of the other 2 one tried piano and stopped, the other does piano, guitar and drums.

Agreed! My eldest played the flute for five years, passed grade 3 and lost interest. DS2 inherited it, passed grade 2 and asked to try the sax instead, but not to do grades. Same teacher. He is in the last stage of having lessons now in Y13. He enjoys it. But I cannot see how it has given either of them any social advantages!

I complained about my piano lessons all the time as a child. I didn’t want to practise, wanted to give up. Am I glad my parents wouldn’t let me give up? Every day. I didn’t have the maturity then to know how much pleasure playing the piano could bring as an adult. I didn’t know that my career would actually include teaching music and that reading it would be an advantage. I know that instruments can be learnt at a later age. But it’s harder! And lots of research shows that learning an instrument develops the brain in a way other activities cannot. It works all your senses at once.

Part of this is because I was forced to play the piano as a child, only doing grades - and hated having to play the same classical pieces for months at a time. I gave up as a teen, but ironically I have rediscovered the joy of the piano in middle age and now love trying to play music that I l actually like! I can only do this because I learnt the basics as a child.

I could have written this. I don’t think it did me any harm but it was dreadfully boring to play scales every day and for exams. I suppose there may be some value in persisting with things that are dull to get grades/jump through hoops. My parents knew nothing about music so I probably could have skipped scales and exercises at home and they wouldn’t have been wiser, but practicing them was something that I decided to do on my own. (Thinking about it now I’m anmazed I possessed the maturity.) And I did learn to play less robotically and with more feeling when I got older. I also appreciate classical music more than I probably would have without that foundation. I do think there’s value to being able to read music, which you really only understand after a few years of playing. It’s allowed me to experiment with other instruments and I’ve picked up the guitar as an adult.

I would gently push it if there is time in the week. Can you find a teacher who will intersperse classical music with popular music? If not piano/keyboard which I think is a great foundation for other instruments, the guitar which I think is more sociable.

Well they do a bit, they give you UCAS points for it.

That aside, your DC do sport, right? That ticks the same extracurricular box in my view.

But would they be interested if you played in the school orchestra or band throughout secondary? I think being able to play with others is a terrific experience.

It may be more of a US thing to have a huge array of extra curricular activities to impress colleges.

Me too.

I went to a school where it was the done thing to play an instrument and we all did. I'm in touch with many of my school friends - a couple were very musical and they have careers linked to music, but the rest of us all gave up and didn't feel much benefit.

With my kids - I am led by them. One is doing a musical activity (not a classical instrument though) and one isn't. I am not going to pressure them into it, I really don't see the point

And playing in front of others after practicing for so long is a special thrill too.

Honestly though it depends on the type of child you have. Some will moan but they also enjoy it and will benefit a lot from practicing and playing. For others then pushing it is a waste of time that they could be spending on other activities and it’s ultimately damaging.

The "top tier" universities that most aspirational middle class parents are likely to be interested in are unlikely to make offers which rely on ucas points from hobbies etc.

My dd had ucas points from multiple activities including dance, drama and singing exams, but these were completely irrelevant to her university offer, and didn't feature at all - it was her academic grades that were important.

The extracurricular stuff undoubtedly helped to build her confidence and gave her stuff to talk about at interview etc, but equally, so did her part time job, work experience, volunteering etc.

Instead of musical instruments what about singing lessons or choir? Being able to sing well is a skill i do not have and i wish i did.

Oh Gosh, that's the kind of thing you say in jest about yourself not to your friends!

DS1 did a year or two of keyboard but wasn't that interested so I let him quit (my grandad played piano beautifully and composed so I thought he should at least try), he enjoyed choir for a few years though.
Now 99% of his energy goes on football instead.

DS2 (6) loves the piano in our church hall so I might see if he wants to do keyboard next year (school offers instruments from year 2).

I did choir and flute all the way through secondary school but I enjoyed it and my parents didn't need to nag me to practise.

Yes I think for ucas it helps to show interest in some extracurricular, I don’t think it necessarily matters what though

Totally disagree on this. I went on youth orchestra tours all over Europe as a teen. Best days of my life!

Your personal statement is to show your passion for the subject you have chosen to study - the supra-curricular stuff, bit extra-curricular.
So the books/articles you've read, lectures you've attended, work experience, MOOCS completed, competitions entered, clubs/societies etc not grade 6 recorder.

I mean, I've lost count of the times a blast of 3 blind mice on the recorder has got me places in life!