Lucy letby

[bloomingbonkerz]

Do you think she did it ? Watched the documentary and I’m not sure she should have been convicted

Guilty as sin

Maybe that's why we have miscarriages of justice, I think pathologists need to determine cause of death and actual murder really, that might help.

If I had just been wrongfully convicted of murdering babies and was faced with spending the rest of my life in prison, I think I would be so distressed and inconsolable I would probably have to be sedated for my own safety.

If you lack the basic empathy to imagine how horrific that would be in reality then that is concerning and makes you look terrible.

Besides which, during sentencing hearings if the person starts protesting their innocence they are punished for it. She would have had to sit there listening to impact statements calling her an evil monster, listening to the judge calling her an evil monster and telling her she would die in prison.

I sincerely doubt an innocent person could have coped with any of that without becoming very, very unwell and being removed for their own safety. Just trying to imagine the horror of being in that position makes me feel ill.

I don’t know how anyone could confidently say she is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

Absolutely. If you were, in fact, an evil monster with no conscience then you wouldn't care about being in that situation.

I haven't watched it yet and am slightly on the fence about it, but it's already obvious that her defence was crap and she didn't have the experts who would have testified in her favour and that the doctors who were called as prosecution witnesses shouldn't have been believed.

The NHS has a fucking terrible blame and cover up culture and they would rather a nurse went to prison for murder than admit they are responsible for patient deaths.

I've got no problem believing that she is probably innocent, it won't surprise me when she is released in 20 years time and everybody says how terribly she's been treated. What's awful is that it will probably take 20 years for the truth to come out.

I don’t know if she did it or not.

However, I do not believe she was convicted ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ which is the basis of our whole justice system.

That concerns me.

It’s an unsafe conviction and definitely not guilt beyond reasonable doubt imo

What always strikes me about these threads is the clear divide between those who lay out the facts and arguments as they stand disspasionately and those who rely on emotional language to sway the readers.

And the fact they often project their own propensity for emotional bias onto others.

Hence we get posts accusing others of only believing Letby innocent due to her demographic. Or those who ask such questions as would you leave your baby with her. Or claiming they were swayed by 'odd behaviour'. This betrays their own prejudices.

I can't say definitively whether Letby is guilty or not. But I do believe this case in no way met the threshold for 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

(Edited for grammar.)

I don’t know.

I initially found it odd that she didn’t protest when they came to get her, surely you’d be shouting how you were innocent, if you were. However, others have said she was likely on all sorts of anti depressants etc by that point, which would explain her flat responses.
I thought it was a bit strange that she asked if they would search the house, why? Also the not having a shredder when she clearly did.
I don’t think it’s strange that she looked up the parents on Fb, I think that’s quite normal to be curious and I look up different people at different points.
Her friend says the staff were awful and almost bullying to L, which I thought was interesting
I also think L comes across as possibly being autistic, which could account for certain responses and the way she comes across

I don’t know if she did it or not. She had to redo her final student nurse placement for being ‘cold’ and lacking in empathy which was noted in the Thirwell enquiry. However it does feel that it wasn’t proven without reasonable doubt. I think there should have been a specialist jury not just lay people. If she is innocent, how awful to be in prison.

The most elite group of neo-natal specialists in the world voluntarily examined every medical file of the babies who died. They didn't find a single case of death with intent.
They did find collossal failings in standards of care.
In one specific case, they found that a male doctor had inadvertently caused the death of one baby by injecting his medication into the wrong side of the child's body...
That certainly wasn't Letby's fault but she was found guilty.

I think she is a scapegoat used by doctors and hospital administrators to cover their own incompetence.

I think she is guilty as hell.

The barrister who was trying to make a case in her defence in the second half of the documentary was also talking out of his arse on some points.

That’s the exact problem, the detectives got so pig headedly convinced she was guilty, through a combination of groupthink and confirmation bias, that they ignored all the evidence that there weren’t any murders at all and selectively relied on experts who agreed with them, no matter how dubious their credentials.

The inquiry into the Operation Hummingbird debacle is going to make very interesting reading.
Meanwhile, so much public money being wasted. So much additional grief and pain being caused to the parents of the babies. So many missed opportunities to improve care and make sure this doesn’t happen to any other parents. And that’s even without considering the suffering caused to the innocent woman locked up.

The triumphalist crowing of the police on Netflix and elsewhere is revolting.

Unsafe verdict.

Incompetent hospital administrators and doctors who were working less hours on the neo-natal ward than they should have been were the main causes of the deaths.

Dr Shoo-Lee's work was used to convict Letby and he became alarmed at his research being used incorrectly. He formed a team of the world's leading neo-natal specialists and meticulously went through every dead baby's medical files.
They found ZERO evidence of murder.
They found a lot of evidence of sub-standard services and teamwork.
He declared that the hospital involved would have been closed down in Canada for the appalling standards they had in childcare.

Fyi Dr Shoo-Lee was the Pediatrician-in-Chief, Director of the Maternal-Infant Research Centre at Mount Sinai Hospital, and an Associate Member of the Lunenfeld-Tanenbaum Research Institute.

Just the weight of the accusations levelled at her would be enough to make any individual comatose. You can't judge anyone on their reaction to an accusation.
There are as many different reactions as there are people.

How do you know she wasn't on medication?
Btw she will be found innocent.
That's just a matter of time.
The evidence against her has already been found to be incorrect and inadequate.

I've no idea if she did it or not because all I've done is watch stuff on the tele about it. The jury, who sat through the entire trial, found her guilty beyond reasonable doubt. So I'll go with what they think.

Yes, you’re right. I didn’t realise it had been a couple of years by that point

What points would they be then ?

There's a lot of truth in this. Sadly, if she'd been a nurse from Nigeria or the Philippines the media wouldn't give a shit.

I think it is interesting that once she was taken off the Neo natal unit that babies stopped dying.

She definitely comes across as an oddball and showing a lot of the traits of classic serial killer behaviour (taking souvenirs) and approaching the police while the investigation was on, etc, the weird notes. I don't think the friend's testimony amounted to much, especially when you think that most serial killers parents think they are innocent - trauma & denial.

But that’s the problem , the police interviews looked very amateurish, they were basing their supposition of guilt just on the way she behaved not on hard evidence and as far as I’m aware we don’t convict people on the basis we don’t like them or they aren’t giving answers they would expect . As an example LL was asked to account for another scenario to explain how the child died and the policewoman said she had no answer to give but how could she offer an alternative, she’s a nurse not a neonatal paediatrician.

What about Dr Shoo-Lee's examination of the medical files of each of the dead babies? He and a voluntary group of the world's leading neo-natal professionals went through the files individually and then in groups and then all together to debate any differences in opinion.
This elite team came to the conclusion that not a single death was intentional.
They put the blame on inadequate teamwork by the doctors and nursing teams in the neo-natal wards. They clarified that the standards of care at this hospital were so inadequate that it would have been closed down if it were in Canada where Dr Lee had worked.

The unit was downgraded at the exact same time she was removed from the unit so they no longer had the smallest and sickest babies.