Lucy letby

[bloomingbonkerz]

Do you think she did it ? Watched the documentary and I’m not sure she should have been convicted

Why was it weird?

Yes exactly

I think probably this is not seen as a good idea because your average ‘medical expert’ in this context is likely to be from a narrow demographic i.e. white, male, middle class, privately educated. An unfortunate fact of life in this country.

The point of a jury is that it’s meant to be a range of people from across society.

I'm a solicitor (admittedly not criminal) but I'm now not at all sure the evidence was strong enough. It was unhelpful that the defence didn't submit any expert evidence.

I also get the impression that assumptions were made about her because she was socially awkward which is just plain wrong.

That isn't me saying I think she's innocent because I have no idea. But the required benchmark is evidence beyond all reasonable doubt and I'm now not sure that has been satisfied at all.

Out of curiosity, why do you think her home life was weird?

I can imagine a competent nurse noting when there had been an event she would need to report and or / reflect on. Looks like she disposed of lots of handover sheets so probably careless on that point.

I don't think anyone ever said they closed the unit because they couldn't cope without her. They closed it because they needed to investigate safety after baby deaths. They brought in the Royal College of Paediatrics and Children's Health, who reported that it wasn't safe and needed to improve systems and standards of care before reopening

The only thing I can’t get past are the letters she wrote herself saying she did it.

You can see from the clips shown that she had already answered very similar questions before, presumably it had just got to the point where her solicitor advised her to say no comment.

I think the first paragraph of this covers something that should scare all of us. That so many experts have come out with detailed criticisms (which, if they were wrong, could seriously harm their professional reputations) and there being apparently no way for this to lead to a retrial.

A woman has been found guilty of the most hideous crimes and sentenced to spend the rest of her life in prison. There should be ways to accept there may have been mistakes and it is vital that the situation is addressed.

The current situation is not a sign of a healthy legal system, let alone the "best in the world". Something has gone very, very wrong.

I’m still not sure. Too many “no comment” responses for me to 100% think she’s innocent, but I really want her to be! If it was me I would trying to explain every little thing and I’d be desperately trying to get across how I could never hurt little babies.

This is a weird jumble of thoughts, and ironically as racist as anything a UKIP supporter could come out with.

Yes but the circumstantial evidence is normally stronger and there tends to be proof that crimes were actually committed.

In most murders they would have been shot, stabbed, beaten to death, strangled etc. they know for a fact that crimes have been committed.

What about the other parents? The ones who didn't get answers? and the parents involved in the new case that the CPS refused to proceed with, or the parents of the babies who wanted their babies care at COCH looked into but they wouldn't because it happened after LL left?

She did tell them that. But if she kept saying it instead of answering their questions they could have said she was uncooperative and too emotional. I don't think you can win by the way you behave in these situations. You just have to hope nothing will go wrong and you'll get justice.

I think it comforts us all to think we couldn't be found guilty of anything we didn't do because we would behave differently. But once you are in the spotlight people tear you apart anyway.

You can see in the documentary that she already answered similar questions, she might have answered them many times before she was advised to start saying no comment.

There were only 5 handover sheets in that box marked 'keep' and none of them related to the babies she was accused of harming.

Don’t know if anyone else has said this but the police have now looked at some child deaths around her previous employment and they tried to bring charges against her but the CPS (I think?) decided the evidence didn’t support charges.

Keeping the medical notes on the babies that died. Looking up the parents on Facebook. All very weird. Hardly the behaviour of an innocent nurse.

The notes she wrote saying that she was evil and killed them.

The Fb thing isn’t weird at all though?

Beyond reasonable doubt is the British justice system foundation

This is one of many cases where the evidence is too complex, medical and statistical information can be interpreted to suit an agenda. It was not a case where clear evidence like cctv was available.

This would have been difficult for the vast majority of lay people to follow and comprehend, hence they can be easily swayed by the experts.

This was compounded by the lack or defence expert witnesses.

It is a reasonable move to ask the criminal cases review to consider all expert evidence to decide if a retrial is needed.

So we should just ignore ALL the experts in this field of medicine who say there were no murders, deaths yes, but no murders?

She made 2318 facebook searches and only 31 related to the babies. She searched for everyone.

I dunno I mean perhaps it’s better to say no comment in the heat of the moment instead of blurting out emotional things that could make things worse for you regardless of whether you are innocent or guilty .

I think her conviction is unsafe - I don't think she is guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Too much circumstantial evidence, too many experts now questioning things.

I think she will end up with a retrial/conviction over turned.

A therapist asked her to write a journal ...of what she felt others were saying about her? It wasn't a diary it was a therapeutic exercise when she was in the midst of being bullied and severely ill babies were dying because they were being cared for in a unit which was not equipped to offer them the correct level of care

This has been covered in the press. She was encouraged to write the notes by a therapist in order to explore her feelings. If she is innocent, and that’s what we’re exploring here, what she’s been through is unimaginable. She would have had to face the world thinking she’s a serial killer and do something with those feelings. The notes are clearly loaded with grief, which does not quite fit the serial killer narrative.

More generally, I wish people would acknowledge that miscarriages of justice are real. Look at Andrew Malkinson, his life was destroyed. The fact that people with such a fixed mindset and lack of criticality could be part of a jury is a good argument against trial by jury.