My ds keep shaming me

[Sunshining20]

My 4 and 5 year old DS have taken to calling me the worst fattest mum in the world every time I don't give in to TV or snack demands. They also tell me to shut my mouth and hit me. But the calling me fat all the time is relentless.

They come from a loving home and me and my husband parent seemingly the same as our other parent friends. Giving boundaries, organising things like baking and days out and socialise.

Where have we gone wrong? How do we fix this? We have done time outs and explained this language and behaviour isn't acceptable.

It makes me very sad and resentful.

Have I slipped into a parallel universe here? The advocacy for smacking is shocking. No they don’t learn that if you hit you get hit back. That completely ignores the massive physical and power difference between adults and children. What they learn is that their parent cannot be trusted not to physically hurt them. Child development 101 is don’t hit your kids ever.

I would look at what they’re watching and manage that a bit more firmly. Do they have access to YouTube? Stick to CBeebies and remove access to programmes with physical violence (even in a fun context for a while).

In the moment I would either simply step away and manage my own feelings followed by a conversation later or if I felt able to have the conversation right away I would get down on their level and say ‘I cannot allow you to hit me. We do not hit.’ Then I would repeat this at bedtime every night ‘do you remember what happened this afternoon? You hit me. I will not allow you to hit me. That hurts. It is wrong. We do not hit.’

As for the ‘fat’ language again I would either walk away or say ‘we do not talk about other people’s bodies.’ They may laugh or seem to ignore you but again go over it with them later in a quiet moment. Read some books with them about bodies that include exploring different body shapes.

Then I’d sit down as a family and talk together about what are the golden rules of this house and write them down somewhere everyone can see. This is something children do in nursery and reception and is very effective with this age group. It gives them a stake in the rules.

So golden rules need to be simple and few but they need to be something everyone sticks to.
e.g. We use kind hands.
We say please.
We use kind words.
We don’t talk about other people’s bodies.

Then in terms of consequences it’s don’t engage with the behaviour in the moment or simply restate the golden rule then return to it later and have a conversation where you remind them firmly that we don’t do this. I know it might not sound like much but if you give it a try you might be surprised.

I agree with this.

And skinny or "ugly" too.

I'm tired of body-shaming, in either direction, being the last bastion of acceptable discrimination. You see it on these threads all the time, and, particularly the fat-shamers, are so haughty about it, as if being disapproving somehow shows them in a good light.

It's just discrimination and judging people for something superficial in the way that that being racist or sexist is.

They are little op. They need to be taught now while they are still forming their attitudes that it isn't acceptable to judge people for superficial things, or to hit out in anger with abusive comments. The only way is consequences and if they aren't working, you need bigger ones.

You introduce sanctions until the behaviours stops. for example, no TV for the rest of the day if they call you fat and if they do it again the next day then no TV for the next 2 days. Play dates, treats, whatever it is that they like. Honestly you have to nip this in the bud now and show them that you are in charge otherwise you will have no chance when they are teenagers. Make sure you explain clearly why their behaviour is unacceptable and make sure you follow through with the punishment.

I would also calmly tell them that they do not get snacks if they can’t ask nicely and walk away. Something I do with my daughter who is 4 is refuse to get into a negotiation. If she asks and I say no and she asks again I tell her “I have already said no. Please don’t ask again”. And if she cries/has a tantrum then she has a tantrum.

Also when they do ask nicely / accept a no give them lots of praise. They are doing this for the reaction.

Please don’t hit them. I’m in Scotland where that is actually illegal (rightly so in my opinion).

Where on earth are they getting this from? This is a bizarre way for two young children to behave!

Even if it upsets you you need to brush it off

“I might be the fattest mum in the world but I am still in charge of your snack box/tv”

“how long do you think you would last in the big grown up world hitting if you don’t get your own way”

“every naughty behaviour adds another 30 minutes onto tv ban and yes this will carry over so think very carefully is expressing yourself this way worth the consequence”

and get dad involved
he needs to channel the male parenting role model and they need to know you stand together

Does your husband react to them disrespecting you this way?
Because I know it's old fashioned but my DH would always go mad at my boys if their behaviour tipped over into disrespect for their mother. Men shouting can be scarier than women shouting.
It was very rarely needed and we've raised two very lovely young adult men who have absolute respect for everyone, including women.

Honestly you've had good advice here about consequences but a good old fashioned bollocking is needed..."cross voice" won't cut it, you need to make them jump!

And I can't help but wonder (and you don't seem to have answered) how your husband treats you?

They have heard this language somewhere. Find out where.
How does your husband react when they talk to you like that? And do they speak to him like that? You need a united front and consistency- pick them up on it every single time. I know my DH would not have tolerated my DC speaking to me like that.
I would tell them we do not talk like that to anyone, ever, and take them to their room where they stay until they can be polite.Or naughty step.
Then no screens at all until you’ve worked out how they are hearing this stuff.

Where have we gone wrong? How do we fix this? We have done time outs and explained this language and behaviour isn't acceptable.

Perhaps OP has tried TIME OUTS and explaining that it’s unacceptable language and behaviour?

My kids never called anyone any names ever. I don’t understand why they’d turn on their mum.

If my kids did this to me, I would go very still and stare at them, then shout/scream: 'what did you just say? How DARE you?!' I would then send them to seperate rooms without anything in them for a while.

If they did it again, I would start throwing away their toys.when my husband got home I would tell him exactly what they said, he would also shout at them and warn them if they did it again then their tablets etc would be binned.

and repeat. They are pushing the boundaries because they are learning that they can do and say whatever they want and you will just cry or look sad.

I would warn my kids against playing with your kids if they acted like that, and certainly wouldn't have them over to my house. You are storing up problems because you are acting too wet/ 'gentle'.

They are acting appallingly, it's ok to show then that if they act this way to people they will act very angrily and there will be immediate consequences.

I would be speaking to school because I'm guessing the 5yo is hearing it there if noone is using that language at home and I'd want to know what's happening there.

What I would do is sit them all not (not immediately after a row) and come up with a home agreement (ie write down on a poster the ways people will treat each other in your home to make it a nice place to live eg. Listen to each other, use kind words etc) then I'd get them to think of a consequence for when someone breaks the agreement. And then you follow through on that every single time.

I'd say consistency is key, you and dh need to be completely united and consequences be to be immediate and impactful so its a direct association. Ie unkind words mean no TV for the rest of the day. You could also use a rewards system with a treat they need to work towards with good behaviour - poor behaviour means one marker towards their treat is removed.

At the same time I'd be thinking about what they're watching on TV, I'd be including books etc about why it's important to be kind with your words and lots of talk about empathy. I wouldn't jump directly into punishment as you need to be calm and if the other parent is there when this happens they need to show you empathy and care and reiterate that it's never ok to hurt others with hands or words.

When they're doing this, they're dysregulated, angry and they're trying to manipulate the situation to try and regain control so you must be calm and grounded when you're responding otherwise it tells them that it's working. So lashing out in response isn't going to work.

I would go very still and stare at them, then shout/scream: 'what did you just say? How DARE you?!'
I would start throwing away their toys

This actually sounds a bit unhinged ...

See I don’t really view time outs as a consequence - more a way of putting breaks on a situation, giving everyone time to think about it, and then having a serious conversation about the behaviour and explaining the consequences.

Ops language about get handling of this sounds weak to me.

This. ^ They have heard this from someone. No children aged 4 and 5 years old would be saying such nasty things about their mother.

@Sunshining20 The first place I would look/my first suspicion would be their father. I just don't see who else it could be. You should confront him.

You stay very calm not showing aby anger or distress. You simply lead him ti a boring time out place whete he has to stat for 5 minutes with no interaction (if he moves or shouts you put him straight backand start tge timer again) after tgat he has to apologise and then hug and move on. You say you have 'tried' timeouts, but you wont get immediate success, you have to stick with it long term until the 'time aint worth the crime' sinks in.

Firstly, you need to establish where they have learnt such vile language. Do they have access to screens? Some kids at school?

You sit them down and tell them the rules. No hitting, and no nasty words. If they break either rule they do time out and no treats. Be VERY firm with them when they use inappropriate language.

But you MUST establish where they have learnt such phrases. It is not typical vocabulary of a 4/5 year old.

If one of them does it, then make sure you focus on praising the child that is being good, and the other one needs to see that they are missing out.

If my 5 yo called me this or told me to shut my mouth and hit me he’d be getting very severe consequences. Behaviour like this can be a result of too much gentle parenting IMO. You can’t sit a 5 yo down and explain why it’s hurtful to call you those names because they haven’t developed enough empathy to care yet. Yes, you should still have that conversation with them to help them develop that empathy, but that can’t be the only thing you do. If it was me they’d get shouted at, told if they dare ever speak to me like that again I’d be emptying the snack cupboard for good. And I would do it. No snacks until they can speak to me respectfully. If they carried on doing it after that I’d impose another consequence, something like “we’re not going swimming today anymore because why should I do something nice for someone who calls me fat and tells me to shut my mouth?” I’d genuinely ask them this question and try and get them to think about whether they’d feel like doing something nice for someone who had called them names and been rude to them. After all the inevitable crying about missing out on swimming, once they were calm and able to listen, I’d sit them down and explain to them that it hurts my feelings a lot and it’s not nice and not kind. They have to know that you’re the boss and you won’t put up with it. They’ll soon learn that being mean and disrespectful equals not getting treats or being able to do fun activities. I’d get some books to read them about kindness and feelings etc to help them develop their understanding of this too

How are you reacting when they say it? This needs more than "Thats not very nice" and taking toys away

I think time outs have been proven to not work well.
And haven’t worked here also.
Have you had a calm heart -to-heart chat about it hurting your feelings ? How it’s not an appropriate thing to say to anyone ? With each child separately.
I would say no more days out and no more treats etc until they can be kind to their mother (and everyone else !) and husband should be on the same page here to support you.

There is absolutely no chance in hell this would happen in my household.
I would take everything away from them right now, and make them earn things back with good behaviour. This has gone on long enough OP, they need to learn that if they want things they have to be good, as opposed to having things taken away for bad behaviour if that makes sense.

I suspect OP knows full well where they got it from but doesn’t want to share as it will shatter the illusion of the perfect loving household.

How on earth does not showing any anger or distress when someone calls you the fattest mum in the world teach them anything?! They are being nasty to see what happens, teaching them that women just go quiet and bear it is a terrible, stupid strategy.

They need to know if they are horrible to people, then people will be angry and bad things then happen to them (not violence obviously). That's how they don't turn into wifebeaters/serial killers.

Gentle parenting has a lot to answer for.

This response is so kind and helpful , everything I thought but couldn’t phrase this well.

They could’ve easily got this kind of language from kids at school or online. My first thought wouldn’t be that it’s the husband