What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

I wouldn't consider Epstein etc to an example of how ordinary men conduct themselves. Though he's hardly a great advertisement for his sex. Unfortunately women were involved as well. We know about Ghislaine but there were many others too. Not that it makes it any less vile.

But yeah, it's sad that young people have to see such evil. It does make them despair I'm sure.

I think it's a valid statement she made tbh. It really is such a headfuck.
We are witnessing a massive uncovering of such unthinkable heinous stuff by so many men, and supported and enabled as ever by plenty of pick me women.

I do have sons and a fairly decent husband too, so I don't think I'm a proper man hater, but it's a bloody challenge.

She's not wrong. I have major side eye at most of the men in my family and friendship circle so whatever all the rest that I've never met are like? Fuctifino!

I don't want to know them.

Most of the male employers I've had have behaved in shocking ways.

I wish we could create a massive island where women that want to only live among women could live. Men could drop in supplies but only by helicopter and then fuck off again! : )

We could all cheer as him and his chopper disappeared over the horizon!

It logically follows from your statement, although I'm glad to know you didn't mean it that way.

It does sound victim blaming though, on a thread like this, to say that what needs to change is one's attitude (look for the good!!) and not that the epidemic of men's violence against women is what needs to change.

Yes, thats absolutely not what I meant and Im sorry I wasnt clear about that.

I have 2 sons too. I wonder how your sons and their friends treat their girlfriends behind closed doors and I wonder about their porn consumption and content of it.

I think it is an extremely naive viewpoint. Of course our sons are victims of the current (hyper) patriarchal society, but what of the women they 'consume' and have romantic relationships with.

Understood!! I'm sorry if I jumped down your throat on that! I think all the misogynistic comments on this thread have riled me up 🫣 Apologies!

Didn’t the Dalai Lama also say something about how if a woman was to succeed him she would need to be attractive? I mean, don’t worry about being an effective spiritual leader and spokesperson for millions of people - are you fuckable enough to be the next Dalai Lama? That’s the important question.

No worries, we're good. (Maybe they should get us on the UN to solve pressing world problems and help people come to an understanding LOL :) )

So do I

We'd do so well 😄

“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
A Lincoln.

Barack Obama, who said nice things but engaged in multiple military conflicts and furthered wars not solved them? Dalia Lama, as pp says, of whom there is video evidence of him asking a child to suck on his tongue?

I’ll go with Keanu as a good man although don’t know that we can say that for sure. That’s 1 out of 6 men there who are decent! And in your ‘for every bad man there is a good man’ world - that’s still half of all men who are bad! Pretty terrifying statistics.

I agree with you that we need hope and belief for better though. I think that comes with dealing with the mess we are in though, not pretending we aren’t in it.

Yeah she’s not wrong is she though.

I think the key word here is power.

My mother is a contrarian - honestly it’s utterly tiring. Can’t have a conversation about anything.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

It isn't.

I've seen it happen.

Yes! He did. I mean, he later apologised for both of those things, but I think the fact that he did them in the first place is the problem. The apologies were probably just for optics.

And god knows what Barack Obama has got up to behind the scenes. With men (or even women) who have risen to such power, the likelihood of corruption and seedy behaviour is very high. And didn't he rub shoulders with Epstein? Just because we don't know he's done anything, doesn't mean he hasn't.

I'd love to believe Keanu's a decent bloke, though (but as with Noam Chomsky, I'd probably be wrong).

I was sexually assaulted aged 10 and again aged 13 by two different men. When I was assaulted aged 10 he also had his hands round my neck and partially choked me . So I agree with your DD and it didn’t take me to get to adulthood to realise just how vile they can be. I very suprisingly found a man I could love and who is the most gentle kind of person imaginable.

There is just so much more of this happening at every level of society. Most of it is hidden and will remain hidden. Only DH, one of my sisters and therapists know about what I suffered, it has affected my whole life though not diagnosed with MH issues till I was much older when I suffered a huge MH crisis.

Women are not comparable whilst there are some women who are sexual abusers it’s a minority and even then many do it to please a man. Even my lovely gentle DH could hold me down and kill me quite easily as he is so much bigger than me.

So you’ve seen 12 times as many shit women as men? 12 times as many women rape men as men rape women? 12 times as many women murder men as men murder women? I think I might need to see a little evidence…

Well, she has a point.

Some of the nastiest bullies I have met have been women. Wait til DD comes across some of these. It will change her mind not that men are wonderful but that women can be shtty too.

I often say to my husband "I love you but I * hate Men!"

He completely understands.

Point out that Epstein's depravity was assisted and enabled by a woman

I don't think that anyone has said that women can't be horrible?

It's just that men are much, much worse.

I don't think it's a bad thing to feel this way at 19, means she will focus on other things while she is setting up a life for herself. Then maybe one day meet someone who will change her mind.