What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

Of course. I should have remembered that on MN, misandry is rife. Men are the enemy just because they are men.

This thread has made me think of that bastard surgeon, Ian Paterson, who performed unnecessary and unregulated breast surgeries on women and maimed them and didn’t actually remove their cancer. Just for the sheer fun of it.

Women who hate men tend to avoid them. Men who hate women rape, abuse and murder them. Is there anything there that you think might have resulted in us seeing the second as more problematic than the first?

@greycarpetyes I grew up with one of those male centred mothers. She’s a pathetic doormat and they are terrible mothers to their daughters. The internalised misogyny is astonishing. The patriarchy got her well trained.

Hate in all its forms is harmful, particularly when it is targeted against an entire gender, sexuality or race.

I mean, imagine if someone said they hated muslims, jews, gays etc? Even if the person saying that had no intention of wanting to harm those people, making a statement like that would still be unacceptable in this day and age and likely get you in hot water if shared on social media.

Language matters. Saying you hate anything completely is toxic and ridiculous. Does this girl hate her dad, brother, David Attenborough? You'd assume not, but why not? They're still men. She hates men, after all.

She is a smart girl. I’m disgusted with the files too and the 100,000’s story of abuse daily in the newspaper.

The dd didn’t actually say she hated men though, not in the text. I don’t hate men, I like and love some of them. But I am generally worried and often disappointed by their behaviour, even some of the ones I have loving relationships with.

Sons who become the exception tend to have been raised unshielded from the imbalance. Sons who are raised to largely overlook the reality because 'not all men' tend to be much more likely to become the status quo.

My mum over egged it a bit (which I think is why I saw it rather than being drawn into it).

She took me to school when I chose my GCSEs to tell them.it wasn't appropriate or necessary for me to do 10 GCSEs and I should be focusing on typing and childcare options instead as they would be most useful to me as a woman.

I shall be forever grateful to the nearing retirement male head of year who told her I should be looking at university and a career! My mum didn't want me to go to university because men don't like intelligent women. She didn't wanted to have a career so that I could focus on my 'duties' of being a good wife and mother.

My whole upbringing was geared towards pleasing an imaginary man who I might meet at some point in my future. No thanks!

Anyway, let's just say that, given the state of men, it was a bloody good job I went to university and had a career! 😉

It is hard to see those kinds of statistics and not feel as she does at such an age that she is: entering thr adult world as a woman, feeling vulnerable, with vast emotions that teenage years bring.

I would say I felt similarly when I read about the man who was drugging and raping and allowing other men to rape his wife in France. The amount of men locally who took the opportunity when offered to abuse this unconscious woman, of all walks of life and professions, of all economic means, it was just so depressing to see that as a case study if what a % of men will do if given the opportunity.

However, and like Epsteins case, we will only hear of those who are depraved, Not those who didn't take the bait or who quietly live their life harming no-one. They aren't going to appear in the media. My husband is the most moral, kind, fair, humane person and I know he's not the only one on earth. If she's mostly just interacted with stupid teenage boys and sees thr toxic masculinity on social media then I don't blame her, but lofenis a journey and she will meet men who show her that they aren't all the same.

Please don't say 'not all men'. Not all men, but enough that we have to be wary of them all.
She might have had a bad experience with a boy or a man, you never know.
I would be delighted if my daughter was this wise.

Oh look, another rape apologist. It’s getting so boring.

There are dominant power structures that I am part of and I largely stand back and watch other people being oppressed by them whilst I benefit. This is the uncomfortable reality for me so I don’t necessarily blame individual men for not overthrowing the patriarchy. Or if I did I’d be a hypocrite.

If someone told me they hate Jewish people, Muslims or gay people, I'd ask them what was the behaviour shown by members of that group, because they belonged to that group that aroused such strong feelings in them. I'd ask for the evidence that any behaviour arose only from the fact the person was Jewish, Muslim or gay. There would either be a bunch of easily challenged stereotypes, or tumbleweed.
If someone told me they hated men, I'd ask the same question. I'd expect to be there a long time while the person listed behaviour that's either vastly disproportionately or exclusively shown by men, and caused serious harm to women and children.
And without resorting to scratching around to find a handful of bad women to pretend the behaviour wasn't sex based, or pointing out that some men are decent (irrelevant in a discussion about the bad ones) I'd struggle to argue.
Which is the very point of the OP. She doesn't want her daughter to hate men. She wants to be able to reassure her, but you can't argue with the facts.

If at 19, she has a healthy mistrust of men then that’s great. She’s less likely to be attacked, sexually assaulted, end up in a coercive relationship suffering all types of horrors.

The truth is there’s lots of awful men and there’s even more “decent men” who stand by and let the awful men do what they want to women.

Your DD has seen the world as it is, you don’t need to change anything for her.

Yep. Of course there are some horrible men. There are also some lovely blokes around. 👍

And I’ve been on this planet more than a few years, and have met both types. . 🙄

But, teenagers are always opinionated about something, so best let her express her thoughts, without arguing too much.

What an appalling leap of logic. Please point out where in my posts I have defended rapists?

The people - both men and women - in the Epstein files are disgusting, depraved and deserve everything that's coming for them. I am quite frankly appalled by the extent of the cover up. Quite clearly, a lot of very powerful people - likely even including authorities - knew a lot more than they've let on, and that's disgusting.

But let's be clear - while it's the case that the majority will be male perpetrators, it's very likely that there will also be a large number of women who knew fully what was going on, but did nothing about it or turned a blind eye because Epstein's friendship and finances were more valuable to them than morals. I think that's just as bad.

I wish that my upbringing had warned me to be more careful of men. I grew up in an era when the generation of women above me by and large believed, in good faith, that all women's problems would be solved by equal educational opportunities and, in particular, university degrees.

Quite - but that’s not what I’m asking.

Again, approx. 14,000 men in prison for sex crimes vs about 130 women, many of whom were working with or being coerced by a male accomplice. Women acting alone to sexually assault strangers is vanishingly rare, it almost never happens.

Similar kind of split for most violent crimes. When transwomen (who demonstrate male-patterns of violence) started demanding to go in women's prisons, one of the practical issues was there simply weren't any Category A women's prisons to house the most serious offenders in as they'd not been needed to be built for women.

This is not equal, and the odd exception does not disprove the rule. When people point out women who commit terrible crimes, it's always the same names. Did you ever wonder why that is?

We are never going to be able to free ourselves from the abuse and misogyny routinely dished out to women if we can't even agree it happens. Male violence against women and girls is a feature of the society we live in, not a bug. It's not about a few bad apples, it's endemic. And we need to recognise that before we can try to fix it.

Saying "women do it too" is missing the point, twisting reality and getting in the way of progress.

It is very easy to challenge. Just as not every muslim wants to commit terror crimes, you simply say 'well, your dad/brother/other close male friend/acquaintance isn't a rapist or paedophile. Do you hate him?'

Then see what leap of logic they try to make from there. 'Oh no, I didn't mean him!'.

This.

it’s akin to saying “all lives matter” 🙄

it completely misses the point.

shes probably well aware it’s not all men but ITS ALWAYS MEN.

sounds like she’s got a great head on her shoulders.

There was me thinking that older generations shared in my discomfort at the madly divisive culture-wars gender politics among the young, and the constant devaluing of men and masculinity in our culture (to the extent that many men prefer to become women than live in their own bodies) but I see now that it is the older generations who are teaching the young to think in these ways.

OP: "I worry about my daughter having such a negative view of men."
80 per cent of responses: "she is right, good for her, double down on the hatred and fear of men,."

I am a mother of two sons and they - and all their friends - are kind, generous, open-hearted souls who are walking around in this world unaware of the depth of hatred being stirred up against their sex on this thread, on this site, and elsewhere. They will come to see it soon and will simply avoid interaction. Birth rates are plummeting, young people's mental health is declining due to isolation. The answer is not to teach them to hate and fear one another.

As for Epstein, perhaps the lesson should be that the rich and powerful require more democratic oversight. Don't forget that Ghislaine Maxwell (from an incredibly wealthy and powerful family) and Sarah Ferguson (who traded on her royal connections) have also been deeply implicated. People with power are easily corrupted and it is up to the rest of us to restrain and regulate their power so that they can't do so much damage - not take the lesson as being that we must teach our daughters to hate men (or reinforce their own burgeoning hatreds). Hate and fear are never the answer and never ever make any situation better. I hope that all those involved in abusing those girls are brought to justice and the rest of men can go about their business as they were, innocent until proven guilty. Have a good day, all.