What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

It wasn't just Myra Hindley though was it?

Speak from the heart. She is a woman, you are a woman. You both have to navigate living in this world, and your experiences and lifestages will give you different perspectives on the same issue. Rather than see it as being something you need to respond appropriately to so you can help or make her feel better (how can you without minimising?) See it as two women having a conversation. If you agree, say so. If you have a different opinion, offer it. Rather than a problem mum needs to reassure about, it's an issue for two women to discuss and, like when we do it on here, that can feel supportive and enriching in itself, for you both.

Good for her, those incel types will hit a brick wall with her. Wish I’d had her wisdom when I was her age. She’s right to be on alert but I hope she does find a kind man and goes on to have a fulfilling relationship. There are a few about.

Notice how the patriarchy goes quiet when other men get caught out, Epstein etc or when other males abandon their kids?? They close ranks. Those on here saying this young woman is wrong to feel the way she feels are actually being abusive. To tell the oppressed to ‘be kind’ to their oppressor is disgusting. Either they are men themselves or male centred women who need their heads examined.

DDs dad, who she previously idolised, cheated on me and she found the evidence. Now her bf, who we thought (hoped) was better than that has just done the same thing. It doesn’t exactly inspire my poor dd with confidence in future relationships with men. Neither are bad people by any stretch but weak, shallow.

My daughter is 19 and I could say the same!

Of course it's not all men who ae rapists and kill women.

But (and I wish I could find it and hope that someone else has shared it and I've just missed it!) it's like that info graphic that shows its not that a small % of men are bad and the rest are good. It's the sliding scale of those who stand by and silently allow misogynistic comments; those who laugh at demeaning jokes about women to fit in; those who go along with it, whilst not necessarily believing it, so they don't lose face with other men - the men who wouldn't actively do it themselves but who are silent bystanders while other men do.

Those men aren't the gold class villains but they allow it to thrive. They give permission to those men .

And the survey of male university students who anonymously admitted that they would rape a woman (or coerce her into sex) if they were confident there'd be no consequences.

The numerous threads on here which detail lazy, incompetent, unfaithful, emotionally unavailable men.

The rapes that never get reported (twice in my case) because the woman knew that it wpuld be her word against his and his voice wpuld be listened to.

The woman who was raped. Who was seen being dragged down a dirt road by a man, who was heard screaming, who was found wandering naked and distressed afterwards, where the man got off without charge because the court concluded that she'd worn a black lace thong when she'd gone out that night so she was obviously looking for sex with someome.

My daughter is at university 200 miles away and catches the train often to travel cross country, who hasn't completed a single journey over the last 18 months without being approached, harassed, blocked into her seat, followed, asked for her number by at least one (and often more) men and who ae rarely her own age.

She travels in daytime and is constantly risk assessing throughout the whole journey, adjusting her seating position, mindful of her aurroundings and even that doesn't protect her from it.

So, yeah, it's hard to argue with her really.

If men want women to see them differently, they need, as a class, to do better.

ETA: my daughter does have a lovely boyfriend (good boundaries!) And I've raised my son to he a good man. My partner is essentially good but has been educated on unconscious biases and the difference between genuinely being a good man and one who just isn't actively bad.

There is hope. But the work is on men to do now. Its not for women to continue to make excuses and tolerate shitty behaviour

Your DD may come to a more nuanced view in time, but in a way I am glad and saddened in equal measure that the behaviour of too many men is recognised.

I'd strongly suggest she doesn't. An intelligent and informed young woman would destroy this in ten seconds flat. I'm sure the OP doesn't want to lose her DDs respect.

It’s exceptions that prove the rule often though isn’t it? She was horrible but I don’t have the sense that she was motivated by having unfettered access to sex. She already had that with Dennis.

But I think when there's things to be jaded about I don't think it's unreasonable to be so. Depressing that it's the way it is? yes - but there's no point in papering over the reality around her. That's how it carries on and on.

No you aren’t wrong, your instinct is correct which is that the majority of men are largely fine - she’s taking an extreme position (not saying she’s wrong, but it is extreme) and of course you’re going to react the way you have.

It's just an extension of women making excuses for men as women always have.

My mother was absolutely convinced that men just don't know how to use washing machines, or cook, or communicate. And there are still women today who genuinely believe that the many options on a domestic appliance are confusing.

I grew up with the narrative that men don't know their own minds; that women tempt men and don't even realise they're doing it; that, "Men!" Bless them, are just a bit clueless.

For some women defending men is such a strong instinct that to not do so feels like a betrayal.

Young man says he 'hates women' - clearly misogynist, dangerous, needs intervention to adopt healthier beliefs.

Young woman says she 'hates men' - no problem, 100% justified, you go girl!

The double standards are quite frankly ridiculous. Yes, there are plenty of terrible men in the world, but there are also plenty of very horrible women too. Have you asked her what she's thought about Ghislaine Maxwell or Fergie, or is it only the men in the Epstein files that attract her anger?

So a woman being cruel says that women are inherently cruel. A man being a rapist is just an individual man and NAMALT. Got it.

Jaded? I think the problem is that you are rather blind.
Of course it is not all men. But enough of them engaged on this shite. She is grounded and right to be wary and keep her eyes open. If she finds one she can trust, then she will.

your dd is smart I would be very proud to have a dd who was so clued up

the it’s not all men has been a defence for men for far too long

all the men exposed in the files all this information has been known for some time and only one person in prison a woman that tells you everything

Tell her to put down her phone and get out into the real world.

Does she have an opinion on the women mentioned in the report? And the MAGA women defending trump?

Let her be. I'd be proud of a daughter who sees very clearly the ethical horrors coming from the Epstein files.

It's important that women realise what entitled abusers men can be. 98% of sexual crime is committed by men, remember.

Not all men, but mostly only men.

As Germaine Greer said: "Women don't realise how much men hate them."

It's good she goes through this rage, but don't try to sugar coat it or stop it. She'll come through it, and be all the stronger for it.

Does nobody here have sons? If you do, do you really think that your son is the exception or do you hate them as much as you hate other men? All the sons of people on this thread can’t possibly be the exceptions. It’s fascinating and depressing.

I think it’s ok to feel this way personally, especially at her age. It obviously isn’t all men but it’s almost always men. Women did play a role in Epstein’s crimes though, I think women who were in awe of him or even a bit in love with him like Maxwell but also Fergie… He was a good looking chap, I suspect charming too and he preyed on those women too. Maxwell joined in with his crimes though so she was particularly heinous.

Then there’s Hillary Clinton. Think of her what you will, that woman has covered for her husband so much over the years and is now even willing to attempt to cover up his crimes here. Feminist she ain’t. To be honest, dare I say the Queen also covered for Andrew…

I teach young women of 18-22, and I teach them their own (women's) history. I think most women coming into adult understanding and feminism have a moment of incandescent rage when the penny drops.

@JMSA's DD is going through that, and GOOD for her!

The main thing is to live through it and understand there are good men who are human beings, and to also realise that great strength can come from female friendships and solidarity. And find your way into being an assertive and confident woman, in spite of the entitled partriarchy.

I thought pp was implying that lesbians are better partners because they are women? Why else would they be encouraging Op to tell her daughter to ridiculously, "become lesbiani"?

I would make sure she understands that the news shows extremes and rarely talks about men who do good. There are plenty of good men in this world but they're not 'news-worthy'. It's a real shame that young women hate men. I think this is one of the saddest threads I've ever read.

You have to give Marjorie Taylor Greene her dues here. She has stood up to Trump at least. Lots of MAGA just have absolutely no backbone, I include Vance in this who is a massive disappointment. If you read his book, he was grounded and sensible a decade ago and makes some groundbreaking points about the working class but now is living in a Faustian nightmare.