To have lost faith in men

[nondrinker1985]

As a result of all the Epstein stuff. Having been a victim of a sexual assault as a young child then in my teens and twenties I had a sense of what men were like but my DH is a good man.

Literally everyone is involved in this Epstein stuff- anyone with power. So this makes them exploit young women? It’s sickening - it’s heartbreaking for the young girls who are victims of these men.

Yep, men - as a sex class - are horrific. I say this with having a lovely partner and nice men in my life, but you’ll get the NAMALT’s and ‘women do it too!’ posters along any second now as that’s more important than addressing the issue at hand.

🙄

👏

What is "the issue at hand"?

Think it’s there in the title of the thread.

That men are a problem.

How can you lose faith in men if you are married o a good one?

What I find interesting is how much men seem to reject the idea that they are a group. Women are always grouped together and we seem to accept it and feel a sense of connection to each other, but men just say 'oh that's other men' and seem to feel no collective responsibility whatsoever. Women are always tarred collectively, but men shrug and say 'not me.' I think women would be absolutely mortified to belong to a group as awful as men are but men seem totally unbothered.

I'm raising 3 lovely young men ..that's all we can do ..is raise the next generation better ,do our best as parents and call out bad attitude or behaviour towards females

I feel the same and have done for a while. I’m 60 so am probably older than most on this thread.
From my own experience and those of my female friends, family and work colleges some men are absolute bastards and are often in positions of power - whether that’s in a family, at work or the richest men in the world.
I honestly don’t know what the answer is 😞

I say this as someone who’s been married for 37 years to a decent, kind man and have lovely relations with other good men.

Rather than judging men by the horrors that make the news, judge them by the ones you know, husbands, fathers, brothers, sons ,grandsons.
If they are all horrors, I can see women coming to that conclusion.
If not, it's sad then that iyo, all the decent men are lumped in with the rotten ones.

I admit I struggle to retain a positive view but I have a ds so I have to, it's isn't an option to just give up on men in general.

So many of them don't make it easy though.

I absolutely recognise that there is a big and enduring problem with male VAWG, the impact of our patriarchal society, overt and covert misogyny etc. But I don't feel any particular collective responsibility for what other people do just because they happen to share a particular chromosome with me. I very much am bothered by what other men choose to do and I call it out when I see it but I'm not responsible for their shitty choices.

I think it’s very difficult for even well adjusted empathic men who have close relationships with women not to internalise at least some of the misogyny that pervades society.

I mean, what’s the message that the Epstein saga sends? That you can get away with it; that it’s ok; that’s it’s what the most powerful men do. (And yes I know the fat dim witted Windsor prince has received some social opprobrium- that is nothing.)

And sadly that messsge is correct. They do get away with it.

I have sons and a partner who I love. My partner is a good man: but I don’t think he always was. When he was 48 he had a relationship with a 24 year old. I don’t like that. He had affairs in his 30s. He was a party animal. It took him to his 50s & some brutal life experiences to change. One of my sons is gay & clearly sees women as equals. The other two (heterosexual) see them - despite my best efforts- to at least some limited extent as silly sex objects, because that’s how their father sees women.

I don’t think we can rely on men to protect our rights. Men are not coming to save women from male violence & exploitation. They’re the problem, not the solution. We need to be prepared to stand up for ourselves, & support other women.

I think a big part of it is having that money.

Most of us will have occasional treats, theatre trips, a nice holiday, a new outfit, a special meal out and those are the little highlights that lift us.

If you can eat michelin starred meals every day, holiday anywhere, buy whatever you fancy the ennui sets in. I think these very rich people then try to find other ways of getting their kicks because their normal life lacks any real goal.

Extreme wealth is a bad thing for everyone

They say living well is the best revenge. I guess that make raising decent, feminist sons the best retaliation to ingrained misogyny. I've got two, and they are brilliant.

Men as a cohort are an absolute nightmare.

You only have to look at threads of couples who move to Middle East for work and how the behaviour of the bloke changes in a misogynistic culture.

Or indeed at the news, any day at all.

Which means that as women we have two groups of men - men who are horrors - who rape, murder, maim and men who feel no responsiblity. It's pretty easy to see how we've ended up where we are, with women fighting and fighting to help other women (who they, incidentally are 'not responsible' for) while men do very very little.

Yuck. I could never be with a man who went out with someone so young.

I agree and I think there's another layer. Patriarchy tells men that if they are successful, brainless, compliant women will fall at their feet. So insecure men who hate themselves work and work and compromise themselves to be successful, then they find to their horror that women are actual humans who make choices and those women who have no interest in dickheads like them, no matter how wealthy they are. So they turn to the next best thing - women who have no choice but to do their bidding, women who are subdued by fear and disadvantage. These men need women like this to feel big and powerful and successful. Their lives are hollow and meaningless and they inflict their pain on others to make themselves feel better.

Speaking as a man here, it's pretty offensive to be implicitly lumped in with sex offenders by saying you've "lost faith in men".

The number of men who are involved in sex trafficking compared to the total number of men is tiny.

Some people are bad people. Some of those bad people are men.

But it's crazy to tarnish 50% of the world with that same brush.

Yep I have too but not because of this. It's actually because a friend of mine is in the midst of a horrible break up after 25 years. Her ex used to be the loveliest, most placid, least argumentative guy you could meet. She has always been very easy going too. However, the guy has turned into a truly nasty, vicious, awful person. It has truly shocked me and showed me you can never truly know someone or trust they won't hurt you in the end. I was married bur at least my ex was shitty from the off. Maybe I'm naive but I don't want to invest in a relationship for it to end like that. You can't really know someone.

Women are talking about how men selling girls - children, not women - has really shaken them. And your response is to call them crazy and say 'I don't like that.'

I will never not be amazed at how utterly self-centred men are.

Do you drive a car? If so, do you bear collective responsibility for drink-drivers?

Most sex offenders are men.

Most men are NOT sex offenders.

To imply otherwise is sexism and its reasonable to call that out, just as you would call out sexism against women.

How is that comparable?