To have lost faith in men

[nondrinker1985]

As a result of all the Epstein stuff. Having been a victim of a sexual assault as a young child then in my teens and twenties I had a sense of what men were like but my DH is a good man.

Literally everyone is involved in this Epstein stuff- anyone with power. So this makes them exploit young women? It’s sickening - it’s heartbreaking for the young girls who are victims of these men.

I bear responsibility for ensuring the road is a safe place. If I knew someone close to me was drink driving, I would intervene, because I am part of a world where I am responsible for others. I wouldn't shrug and say 'Well I don't do it, so meh.'

No one is implying most men are sex offenders. What they are saying that when a group shows itself, again and again, to be untrustworthy, it's hard to trust them.

I think he set up a lot of powerful men for his own gains,blackmail and so forth.

My goodness me what a chip on the shoulder you seem to have here!

I am responsible for myself and my children. That is true for me, for all other men, and for all other women. We are responsible for our own actions, and for guiding our children into behaving well and taking appropriate actions. Nothing more, nothing less.

To somehow imply that the world is just two groups and that people need to feel collectively responsible for the actions of 4 BILLION other people who are thir sex is probably the most absurd thing I've read on mumsnet ever.

But the 'group' here isn't men. That's just your sexism showing through.

The group is sex offenders in positions of power.

Oh please go away with your Male Privilege. Let women have ONE (1) thread to speak about our abuse and trauma and experience of men without some male with Toxic Masculinity popping up to moan "NAMALT!!!!"
Please. Just have the human decency to go away and leave this thread to us. For once.

Are you aware that your style of arguing is quite rude?

I disagree that we're all just responsible for ourselves and our children. I believe that men feel that way, because it's lazy and it suits them. Women feel responsible for more than that, probably because we're socialised not to be entirely about ourselves.

To be clear when I say responsible, I don't mean answering for other people's crimes, I mean giving a shit and doing something about it.

I've already said that if I see a man being shitty about or to women I call it out.

Do the sex offenders wear a badge on their head telling women who they are?

I'm really sorry to say it but based on experience I don't believe you at all. That's not fair on you, because you may be telling the truth, but in my experience men do pretty much nothing to tackle misogyny. I include men I really admire in that.

I'm not convinced by all these lovely men that you're all apparently related to

Oh not my daddy etc

Wake up

To be clear when I say responsible, I don't mean answering for other people's crimes, I mean giving a shit and doing something about it.

I think this distinction is the one that I was missing. I read "collective responsibility" as a claim that because I'm a man I should somehow bear responsibility for other men's shitty choices.

However taken in the sense of "we've all got a responsibility to do what we can to make the world a better place" then I agree.

Sorry I should have been clearer but really it would be pointless for men to answer for other men's crimes - no one would benefit. I would like men to take a lot more action though. Every single change that has come about in terms of women's rights and protections has been fought for by women, usually with men blocking them at every turn. Now men are trying to pull back women's rights in many part of the world and men who consider themselves good and decent are just silent. It's really disappointing. Of course not all men are sex offenders but most men, IME, do very little to change things. That doesn't inspire trust.

Hilariously deluded.

Even if most men are not sex offenders, most men are sex pests ... to some degree ... Grabby, gropy, watch porn, eye up women half their age, will try it on with most reasonably attractive women, think of women as less than them, and think they're superior to women. Also many men are lazy, and quite selfish, and most of them will pretty much always put themselves first.

I completely agree with the poster who said that men as a general class are pretty horrific. A small percentage of men are pretty OK, (most of the time,) but most of them are sexist, pervy, and entitled. At least at some period in their lives. Some of them are like this all throughout their lives.

Of course, you always get the Not My Nigels on here, and the 'oooh but some women are not great!' crap being spouted. It's as tedious as fuck, but very predictable. 🙄

'Wot about the women!!!' is a pathetic and lame argument that is just insulting to the amount of shit that many women have to suffer during their lifetime at the hands of men.

.

Extreme wealth is a bad thing for everyone

Then why aren't the rich, powerful women in the world generally engaging in sex trafficking?

Oh, fuck this, honestly.
You are all right.
I keep repeating ad nauseam, men are hell.
When I was 42, something clicked.
Now 47, I physically avoid all men and will do so for eternity. Older I get, more agreeable I feel for this set up.
Yes, the Epstein files are 🤢.
He managed to do the right thing, at the right time for himself, though.

I long for the day (and it may have happened already and I missed it) when a thread like this starts on MN and a man comes along and says: 'When I read this, I find it hurts my feelings and I have a desire to defend myself, but I understand that in world where women are routinely threatened, assaulted, raped and sold as possessions my feelings of hurt are really not the issue. I don't hurt anyone but I'd really like to see an end to women being hurt. I really care about this.'

Dream on, my friend.
😔

It is so disappointing that men's first response is to defend themselves and tell women they're crazy.

Are you surprised though?

I actually want to cry because the truth is, I'm not surprised at all. Women give men the benefit of the doubt over and over and over. We hope and pray for them to be better. We give them chance after chance. We love them, support them, make their lives easier.

Even when we've been raped and brutalised by men, we invite them into our home and make a life with them.

And when we talk about our pain they say 'I don't do that! You have a chip on your shoulder! Stop being absurd and crazy!'

I don't want to give up on men, but boy are they making it really really hard not to.

Yep! Reminds me of this cartoon

It’s not just men with power either. The Gisele Pelicot case. Over 50 men (that they know of), ordinary men with respectable jobs, all found within a 30 mile radius of their village.

They are what they are.

They show us what they are every day. The ones here just have too.

Men don't call other men out because they are either afraid of other men or don't care