to be fed up of crap fathers being excused from basic parenting?

[HazelMember]

I keep seeing posts (and hearing it in real life) where fathers somehow get a free pass for things mothers are simply expected to do without question.

Fathers who can’t cope with more than one child at a time.

Fathers who don’t wake up when the baby cries at night because they “didn’t hear it”.

Fathers who are “no good with babies” so the mum just has to deal with it.
Why is this still acceptable?

Mothers don’t get a choice. They have to hear the baby. They have to cope. They have to function even when exhausted. Yet men sleeping through the night is treated like an unfortunate quirk rather than a problem that needs fixing.

Do not even get me started on when a mum goes away for a few days and feels obliged to prepare food, clean the house, label things, and generally make life easier for the father when this is almost never done in reverse.

If a father is “crap” at parenting, the solution isn’t for the mother to carry more of the load. It’s for him to get better fast. That’s what parenting is. You don’t opt out because it’s hard or unfamiliar.

What makes it worse is that sometimes even mothers make excuses for it calling men “good dads” for the bare minimum or explaining away genuinely poor parenting as if it’s just how men are.

Before anyone jumps in: yes, obviously not all men are like this. Plenty of fathers are brilliant, hands-on and competent. This isn’t about them.

AIBU for thinking we need to stop normalising this and start expecting the same basic standards from fathers that we do from mothers?

Mums do get a choice, they make bad ones and end up in these situations. If you accept a low bar then that’s your own fault. DH is a great parent and has been from day one, of day minus one really when he was advocating for me in the delivery suite.

The system is also bad, maternity wards teach dads from minute one they’re a backup, not really relevant. Paternity leave is often abysmal in terms of finance and longevity (as is most maternity leave financially).

Not distrust. Assess. You can decide someone wouldn't make a partner and still trust and be friends with them. It is not about hating men. It is about making a reasoned assessment. I work with men who would be shit parents - they are always in the office - I trust them completely.

I think that’s unfair. I thought I’d married a feminist. I thought he was an equal partner.

We did 50/50 care after mat leave. He took kids to groups/clubs etc.

I couldn’t figure out why I was exhausted constantly.

It took a long time to figure out that he wasn’t applying his brain to it. He was doing the practicalities but none of the planning and prep. He wasn’t carrying the mental load.

It also took the kids getting older and more independently minded and their emotional needs being more complex to realise he wasn’t doing any of the emotional labour. I was having to constantly set and re-set the emotional atmosphere after he’d had big child to child type arguments with the DC.

I thought he was genuinely working on these things but he wasn’t.

Filed for divorce recently and it’s SO much calmer and happier at home now. The temper tantrums proved the deal breaker in the end.

To the world outside he was a committed dad and equal partner. Did laundry, cooking, washing up. Took kids to places. All the background work was me. It was subtle and hard to spot.

It’s not obvious immediately sometimes. I think it’s only recently that concepts like the ‘mental load’ and ‘emotional labour’ have come into more general awareness.

"Financial reasons are much less likely to be what keeps a woman in a bad relationship than they were 30 years ago. It’s hugely important not to become financially dependent on a man and thankfully most women realise this."

This isn't as cut and dried as it appears though. In practice, in order for a smooth break-up, this means both partners having the means to house themselves separately in accommodation which can also reasonably, if not necessarily comfortably, accommodate the DC on a part time basis. This requires a substantial amount of savings and the means to secure a mortgage or ability to pay rent independently. Most partnerships sustain their housing needs based on two incomes, even if the female spouse earns her own money, possibly even out-earning her male partner. Few can separate and not be seriously financially disadvantaged. And I don't mean having to make do with fewer holidays and hairdressing appointments, but rather needing to relocate away from DC's schools, friends and family support, upsetting critical routines, ending up in insecure lets in crowded accommodation. So can we stop shaming mothers who balk at the logistics and often serious financial implications of separating from a less than cooperative spouse. Most mothers would move mountains for their DC but in the face of what looks set to be a messy separation with few real 'wins', let's not shit on the women who hesitate. Instead, we highlight the systemic inequalities which underpin these outcomes and support the organisations which make real change.

This thread is so depressing. As usual women who married “the good ones” pat themselves on the back for doing so and look down on those of us who made “bad choices”.

I’m in therapy atm and funnily enough my counsellor has been clear that the relationship my exh has with our kids is his responsibility, and I should focus on my behaviour, not things I can’t change.

I guess it all depends on individual circumstances. I totally agree that a lot men don’t pull their weight but I also think couples are not willing to try and talk about what really needs to be done. It’s so boring and hard work but being brutally honest with my partner about what I needed helped me. A lot of women just seeth and moan. Unfortunately I think even the best men aren’t motivated to do much childcare wise unless told. It sucks but then i think men and women are very different.

I have come to the conclusion its a mix of factors.
Socialisation over generations, men and women subconsciously assigning roles based on historical familial roles.
Societal conditions, workplaces not set up for equal roles. Legislation will not remove the fear of harming prospects. Employers offer pay for services, employees offer their time and expertise for cash. If the employee can't provide that because of their choices employers will look at those who can.
Women accept that having children will potentially knock their careers back a notch. Men try to avoid the trap by avoiding being the 'carer'.
Low bar by some women, have a child by one deadbeat, then repeat the same mistake either with him or by successive men.
Women's mental health and life outlook is accepted to change after childbirth. A woman can be a 'bad' mother, it will be immediately suggested as PND, hormones etc. Woman who realises her monumental mistake will generally be sympathised and medicalised. Men are deadbeat or twats. It's not that common for men to have personality transplants the moment their wives/ girlfriends get pregnant, a very few are so mentally disturbed they actively choose to be abusive. Men's mental health is badly supported, men need to get behind the need for better services. Teaching young people, both sexes anger and emotion management is needed. Parenting needs to include not excusing DC poor behaviour because of 'big feelings'
Men also need to make better choices, look at their partners relationships with the men in their lives. If the men are pushed out once kids are around its a red flag too that you too will be excluded.

On both sides, are they independent adults, who are functional and not emotionally/ financially enmeshed with family past adolescence. I've seen that as huge red flags in some relationships on here and RL ( Mil threads, women excluding father and fathers family)
Women will often describe the children as 'their ' child rather than 'our'. See the thread about fathers surnames.
Social Housing is based on children living with 1 primary carer. A financially poor NRP gets no help to provide a 50/50 life.
The vast majority of dads I know live in HMO/ studios as they earn shit retail type wages. Mum works PT but gets UC/housing top ups to stay in rental or HA. Hard but doable. Dad gets his wages only. Not saying the state should provide but thats the reality.

Women do have choices these days and putting up with shit men isn't a given. Women need to be prepared to walk away from 'their' family in the same numbers before major changes will ever happen. Maybe women need to 'step down' to make men 'step up'. We spent years campaigning for choices and changes and its up to us to use those choices. Men who are shit should be left on the shelf. It's not victim blaming to say we have to make better choices. We need to accept responsibility for our own behaviours and choices on both sides.

You can't force them. That's the problem. It's like all the 'oh leave, then he'll have to do 50/50 and you'll have every other weekend free'. No, he won't. He will move to the other end of the country. And he might even change his job so you don't see a penny.

If a man doesn't want to step up, he won't. And even HE might not know he's going to be 'that kind of dad' until the baby arrives.

But, excluding actively abusive parents, if they were fathers they would be seen as present, trying, enjoying their kids but just 'not being good at' X aspect of basic parenting. I've seen 'but he loves his children' so often when applying to an absent father...as if a bad or neglectful mother would be excused for loving her kids...

Ahh yes, blame women and their lack of reliable crystal balls, anything to avoid holding shit men accountable.

You do realise many men say they will be devoted fathers but then do nothing?

Ok so how would you like them to be a accountable, explain how that works in reality other than women saying they are not putting up with it and leaving

oh, i'm including myself in that.. mine was a lovely example of what the OP is talking about.. and there were a LOT of red flags that i ignored and got to enjoy at his pleasure.

If i'd paid attention to those red flags and not married him, i wouldn't be where i am now 24 years later. divorced with a history of DV and a fuck ton of trauma that keeps NHS therapy busy.

Mums do get a choice, they make bad ones and end up in these situations.

How do you explain the women who first experience domestic violence for the first time when they are pregnant? How are they to blame?

Changing society's expectations of men, obviously, rather than suggesting that if someone grows up with a shit father, they should blame their mother. Leaving won't suddenly make him a good dad, unsurprisingly.

"so many" isn't "every" though, is it?

There are also lots of women who had no inkling the men in their lives would change when they become parents, either because the men deliberately deceived them or because they didn't realise how much more would be expected of them either.

It's a privilege to have the strength to
a) identify bad behaviour and
b) constantly fight back against it
c) have the option to be able to afford to leave as a last resort.

It's incredibly arrogant to not understand that not everyone has these things. If you grew up in a household where your father did absolutely nothing and hit you regularly then a lazy guy who works full time and occasionally takes the bins out might seem like a god in comparison.

I'm maybe an outlier but it was me that didn't wake up when the baby cried. I had a midwife poke me awake in the maternity hospital as my baby was howling the ward down, waking up all the other mums and babies and I was oblivious.

If a woman sees her husband as a God, then there's no problem is there?

She's not going to be simultaneously moaning about him whilst having more children with him.

They'll have a long and happy marriage if she's happy with her God.

Because presumably your body had just been through the trauma of giving birth.

Not quite the same as dad rolling over and farting, while mum gets up for the 3rd time that night.

I agree op

the bar is set so low for men in general

when they do something that is just basic good parenting they are applauded

when they clean/cook/keep a home running they are applauded

when they are considerate decent partners they are elevated to being men of inspiration and their partners shouldn’t feel lucky to have managed to find a good one

it’s depressing

YANBU but women also need to think more carefully about who they're having children with. Yes, I know some men change after marriage/children, but a lot were selfish arseholes beforehand and it's a little strange to think they'd automatically change once they had children.

My sister is a case in point. She married the "wrong" man - I knew it, our parents knew it, her friends knew it, but she was "in luuuuuve" and refused to see him for who he really was. Even a pub fight with our uncle didn't knock sense into her. She clearly didn't mind him going out boozing 2/3 nights per week, spending hundreds on booze/late night fast food and coming home steaming drunk in the early hours. Didn't mind him going golfing and watching footie every weekend, nor boozy weekends and stag parties. She thought it was all hilarious. UNTIL she had her first baby and expected (why??) him to change his ways and step up to help her - of course he didn't change one iota and she was basically left to bring up the child alone!

Actions speak louder than words. How did the man behave BEFORE getting the woman pregnant. Was he always honest, kind and respectful? That's a very good indicator. Or did the woman know he had a tendency for being unreliable, dishonest, lying, aggression, etc? I'm not saying all men of course. Some are very good at masking their true self. But if a woman spends a lot of time with him before getting pregnant rather than rushing in, I'm sure the "bad" ones show red flags in some ways. Yes, some man will be nothing but brilliant boyfriends, husbands, etc., and will suddenly change but I'd say it was a small minority. Pretty sure red flags are there if you look in most cases.

Reminds me of my BIL.

My sister was away for 4 nights on a work course. BIL left with 6 year old and 2 year old.

Granny #1 (Maternal) pretty much looked after the kids from 8am to 8pm everyday. Kept them fed and washed, school runs etc. And, BIL dumped all the laundry on the other Granny (Paternal) and picked up his homemade casserole/lasagna dinner and packed lunch box 😂.

The trouble sometimes is ladies facilitating men and Granny's wishing to nurture at every opportunity. Men should be neglected and not fussed over all the time.

Funnily enough, when my DH was in hospital for a week when DS was little, no one bothered their backside with me! I had to manage school runs, work, hospital visits myself.

I second the posters that say you only hear those things because MN is an outlet for women to share their perspective.

I must say though, and only from my own experience that I used to think I had to do all those things - prepare food when I was going away, set everything up with DC1, with DC2 I stopped because it was all too much and learnt that I was telling myself DH wasn’t capable - I just had this urge to make sure everything was done. And the crying in the night - women are programmed to be so in tune with our babies that it’s like a switch. Just last night DH took our youngest who’s been so ill he’s inconsolable at night and I went in the spare room because I took him the night before. I still woke up and felt this uncontrollable tension in my whole body hearing him scream. I’m not saying that all men are wonderful creatures without flaws but I do also think sometimes women are a lot more reactive because of the way we are wired.

Totally agree. Biologically Mum's have to feed the baby so must wake up. It's in our DNA to hear them.

My DH didn't always hear the baby but he always took his turn if I gave him a nudge. A baby just having a little snuffle wakes up Mum.