to be fed up of crap fathers being excused from basic parenting?

[HazelMember]

I keep seeing posts (and hearing it in real life) where fathers somehow get a free pass for things mothers are simply expected to do without question.

Fathers who can’t cope with more than one child at a time.

Fathers who don’t wake up when the baby cries at night because they “didn’t hear it”.

Fathers who are “no good with babies” so the mum just has to deal with it.
Why is this still acceptable?

Mothers don’t get a choice. They have to hear the baby. They have to cope. They have to function even when exhausted. Yet men sleeping through the night is treated like an unfortunate quirk rather than a problem that needs fixing.

Do not even get me started on when a mum goes away for a few days and feels obliged to prepare food, clean the house, label things, and generally make life easier for the father when this is almost never done in reverse.

If a father is “crap” at parenting, the solution isn’t for the mother to carry more of the load. It’s for him to get better fast. That’s what parenting is. You don’t opt out because it’s hard or unfamiliar.

What makes it worse is that sometimes even mothers make excuses for it calling men “good dads” for the bare minimum or explaining away genuinely poor parenting as if it’s just how men are.

Before anyone jumps in: yes, obviously not all men are like this. Plenty of fathers are brilliant, hands-on and competent. This isn’t about them.

AIBU for thinking we need to stop normalising this and start expecting the same basic standards from fathers that we do from mothers?

If a single parent, of any sex, was physically unable to wake up to a child in a moment of crisis where serious harm was caused, and it was demonstrated that should that incident happen again they would most almost certainly be unable to wake up again and there was no other responsive adult in that scenario we would remove that child from said parents care.

Social worker - now adolescents but previously family safe guarding

can honestly say never actually done that -
the classic heavy sleeping male only sleeps through as he knows mum is there vigilant

So many women actually do enable lazy, selfish behaviour from their DCs dad and then go on to have more DC with him.

'He works very long hours' - Well yes, because he has a nanny with a fanny at home to take care of his every need.

'He doesn't see what needs doing' - That's because he doesn't do any housework.

'He can't cook but he takes the bins out once a week, and does the DIY' - Yes he can cook, he just can't be arsed to Google a very simple, healthy dish. Bins once a week? Yeah that's a fair swap for cooking every bloody meal. DIY you say? And how often does that need doing? Every day? Every week? Every month? - No, didn't think so.

'The kids only want me when they're upset' - Well of course they do, you're the one who's there all the bloody time, taking care of them.

And women choose to procreate with these men knowing how they are, some even keep
tne child after the man who equally has a right to decide says he didn’t want a kid.
only innocent one is always the child not the man or woman usually

100% agree. This is what a lot of women don't ever acknowledge that men aren't fussed about kids. I don't want kids and if a bloke wanted me to have them I'd kind of think I was doing him a favour too? I'm not sure how much a partner can demand when it was them that wanted to have the kids in the first place. Ofc it's different if the man really wanted kids, but tbh I've never met one who did!

The thing is if all these ambivalent men would grow a backbone and say "no" to kids and get a vasectomy, women would hate that even more. So I think you just kind of have to accept this is how life is. If you push for more the bloke will probably get overwhelmed and leave. It's shitty but that's what a lot of men are like. Of course if you don't want to accept that you can always NOT have kids! Funny how that never seems to be an option...

At this point if mumsnet is to be believed, there are more present stepdads than there are men raising their own kids. I guess maybe because stepdads don't have to do much with the kids so it suits them.

I couldn't vote.
This thread is so depressing.
These threads are rarely, if ever, started by women who have 'walked a mile' or have the imagination to figure out how other women find themselves in these circumstances. It drips with a kind of wilful la-la-la-stupid-doormat-grow-a-backbone privilege which absolutely lacks in grace and empathy.

These dynamics don't appear over night as a rule. There's usually a slow decline involving some plausible issue which becomes baked-in to the family structure and gains non-negotiable status: paternal anxiety, paternal depression following birth of first child are common starting points, with a woman trying hard to be kind and supportive while managing far more than her fair share, because who wouldn't, in the face of their suffering spouse, right? And surely he'll rally soon, if she only manages to hold it together for a bit and not overwhelm him? Just past this next hump, this next tricky developmental stage, perhaps it'll get easier once they're sleeping through, begins nursery or start school?

This then becomes paired with a sunk cost fallacy narrative: the woman is working so hard to support her partner to become a more effective parent (usually by over-functioning to her own detriment) that it feels like all that effort, worry and exhaustion will have been wasted if they split up.

And please, who is actually able to LTB with the ease and lack of critical disruption to structure and finances, as the phrase blithely suggests? Only to face having to hand their DC over to be ineffectively or neglectfully parented by a resentful, moody, anxious or depressed man at regular intervals?

Yes, it is frustrating to watch, but I can assure you that it won't be a patch on how awful it will be to live. So give women a break. The shame and shade is not theirs, but should sit with the dusty menfolk whose weaponised incompetence and manipulation has placed the mother of their children in an unforgivable bind.

So the couple went through the ins and outs of parenting and expectations before conceiving and the father went back on his word?, or the mother's thought i wanna baby and knew the father was not on board and went ahead anyway

The father having a total personality change from being a perfect human being amd father andsuddenly turning crap may explain the first born

But if a father was so crap with one why on earth keep on breeding then complain about it afterwards, using the contraception fail only works so often biit of he is rhat crap why on earth sleep with him again?

How much effort does the mother do on planning before having a child?

So were the signs there and they were ignored?

And their children go on to have children with crap fathers because they are used to it

That can't be right though - when you're asleep, you don't "know" anything, because you're unconscious. A person can't dial the sensitivity of their own hearing up or down based on whether or not they know someone else is "on duty". It isn't a matter of "vigilance", either. When you're asleep, you're asleep, and a noise either wakes you or it doesn't. It would be interesting to know whether women generally have more sensitive hearing than men or are lighter sleepers - maybe? But it can't be a choice, for either sex.

As for saying you've never slept through your baby crying - how would you know?

Nope nope nope.
women are not to blame for men being shit.

There are loads of things my mum didn’t teach me that I figured out for myself as an adult. Men can do the same.

The internalised misogyny is breathtaking

I am not saying both parents are needed every time the child wakes up. Often the parents are supposed to be taking it in turns but the dad mysteriously can't hear the child so it keeps falling on the mum.

I meant I have never been involved in removing a child in the scenario I described.

Have you never heard of the men who pretend they can't hear because they do not want to get up?

Plenty of women have posted about it on MN.

I couldn't agree more.
What is it with women who want a baby with useless deadbeats without thinking it through?

I see this time and time again in here from women who are TTC with men who clearly aren't interested in parenthood - men who prioritise drugs, alcohol or gaming over their partners. Why are these women so deluded that their sperm donors are going to miraculously going to change? Even worse are the women who already have children and want more with their useless sperm donors.

I have known several women in real life whose partners have pretty much said "well, you were the one who wanted a baby". None of their situations have ended happily.

these women need to get real.

Domestic violence often happens for the first time when a woman is pregnant. So either men change or they show it when the woman is pregnant.

@HazelMember this was exactly what I was about to write.
Once men think you can’t escape from them they start the abuse. Women frequently leave when the abuse starts impacting the child.
Some men like the 1950s set up, they want to appear a good family man. They go to work, want dinner on the table when they get in, sit in the armchair watching the telly, go to the pub.
Life isn’t like that anymore. They don’t like it.

You absolutely can control how deeper sleep you let yourself go into. The odd time my kids have slept out, I have been able to fully relax, had amazing deep sleep and woken up feeling fantastic. The rest of the time I know I need to be alert to their needs (disabilities), so I doze/sleep lightly.

If someone is letting themselves get into a sleep so deep they don't hear a baby cry, it's because they have decided their child's distress is not their problem.

Nope
Im absokuteky sick of this 'you should have chosen better' bollocks. Lomg relationship, married, planned kids. Ex was perfectly competent and involved in the household gruntwork until kids were toddlers, early primary age. He used to slightly more freedom amd money we had to meet ow and fuck off. Ten years later he sees them about once a month, does nothing with them when he does see tjem amd knows nothimg about their daily lives. Its absolutely NOT always obvious. Contrary to popular opinion, people DO change. Im one of many who had threads about their husbands turning into strangers overnight.

Of course I've heard of that - experienced it, too. But some people on here seem to be saying that they think men can control whether or not the sound of crying wakes them when they actually are asleep. Which is nuts.

Completely agree.

Increasingly I think what keeps women with these men is loss of face/loss of status.

Financial reasons are much less likely to be what keeps a woman in a bad relationship than they were 30 years ago. It’s hugely important not to become financially dependent on a man and thankfully most women realise this.

But there’s still a stigma about admitting that the man you have had children with is a feckless lazy no mark or a cheat. There are so many posts on here from people unveiling a litany of appalling behaviour and then caveating with “but he’s a great dad”.

When women admit to themselves that they have picked a wrong’un and start to find their independence its such an empowering thing.

Why do we continue to lie to ourselves about how low our standards are?

So now its still womens' fault if their men aren't strong enough to be honest about their most basic and crucial feelings on this? Women are supposed to mind read that but men cant be expected to mind read that we'd like them to take part in the parenting? Right.

@sprogonthetyne is right. This is wrong -

When you're asleep, you're asleep, and a noise either wakes you or it doesn't. It would be interesting to know whether women generally have more sensitive hearing than men or are lighter sleepers - maybe? But it can't be a choice, for either sex.

I also sleep deeply when I'm off duty and lighter when on duty, in a similar situation, with a disabled child who wakes. I don't even need the children to be out or away- I can be in the same bed as DH and if we have pre-decided he is on for the night, I can have a child literally walk into the room and won't hear them or wake. It's a mix of my subconscious allowing myself, and DH jumping up as quickly as he can when he wakes.

He also knows he is on duty less often than me so has always put things in place to enable him to parent - leaves the kids doors a bit open, sleeps on the side of our bed nearest the door, that sort of thing.

I agree. There is endemic self delusion on the part of women about this.

More than half of men don’t really want children deep down in my view. Many of them come around to the idea when the kids arrive.

But fundamentally they often feel they are doing us a favour by donating sperm and that after this and providing money, that’s the end of their obligation.

A long time ago, we met a couple we are close to for dinner and he was self-congratulating himself for dealing with an explosive poo nappy for the first time. His wife was rolling her eyes so asked my DH if he’d do it.

My DH replied that he would just deal with anything and certainly it wouldn’t warrant a discussion in a restaurant!

We let men off the hook by assuming roles. I think the PP who said women are embarrassed by their hopeless husbands is right - we are pandering to an image that they’re great dads and should stop it if it’s not actually true.

It's entirely down to who you choose to marry. Women need to have these conversations before getting married and having kids.

If a man doesn't pull his weight when you live together before marriage they aren't suddenly going to change. Throw then back and find another.

Society is truly at fault for the way we socialise men and boys and the intrinsic message that men’s needs come first. But by blaming women for choosing ‘shit men’ you are suggesting that we should bring up girls to distrust all men and believe that they will turn after the birth of children. This is no way to have a relationship. Women should be able to trust men surely.

There has been some research conducted regarding men and women's waking patterns to a crying baby.

When DD was a tiny baby she was exclusively breastfed. I used to wake as she started to fidget, before she opened her mouth to cry. I just seemed to be in tune with her.

It is a pubmed article, not something from TikTok.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39819066/