To wonder what the future of Girlguiding is.

[Skippythebeercan]

I have run a Brownie unit for many years, and have seen the decline of Girlguding, we have lost so many units and leaders to the point locally our organisation is probably less than half the size it was 10 years ago and is going to shrink again with the loss of more leaders and therefore units imminently. There is a huge disconnect between national Girlguiding leadership and grass roots guiding.

I now wonder what the future holds for the organisation, I personally value the girl only space and think it is important for girls to have this. But, I can see that being lost. A friend suggests she thinks we may start to admit boys and loose our single sex status, I personally think that we may end up merging with the Scouts - both organisations have their differences but do share a founder and many fundamentals, plus I do think each organisation could learn something from the other.

I would be interested in other views on how the organisation may evolve - it may well disappear altogether - possibly sooner rather than later.

I am hoping this thread doesn't become about the trans issue, I appreciate it is divisive but there are other threads. Law suits and this very issue have certainly contributed to Girlguiding's significant image problem on both side of the argument, but there are plenty of other threads about this issue.

As a parent, who used to be a brownie, I do have to ‘gee up’ my daughter to go sometimes, whereas I couldn’t wait to get out of the door!! Our unit is over subscribed and the leaders are lovely but it does feel quite old fashioned now and a lot of kids just don’t want to craft or play games every single week, especially with the lure of screens and the massive array of after school activities that are privately available.

Scouts always looks more active and I wish GG had explored that further with the new badge book and new activities for the UMAs. I suspect (locally at least) the scout leaders are mainly men and don’t have to keep the family life running straight after work, like our female leaders do in Brownies, so they’re off on regular hikes, cycling proficiency etc. 2 local scout groups have both funded brand new scout halls for their sole use, I’ve never seen a rainbow/brownie/guide group manage something like that!

I feel if subs went up, more external things planned (and extras paid for by parents) then I think membership would be quite high. £4 a session is far too low and whilst I appreciate it’s for inclusivity I don’t think it’s sustainable. Let someone set up an arts and crafts group for that, and get GG for girls who want to excel at things to gain meaningful badges.

I would support this too. I don't actually want to be paid as a leader. I earn enough in my (full time) day job that any pay for my 1.5 hours a week (because you can guarantee they wouldn't pay for any of the planning/admin time!) wouldn't make any difference to me, but the expectations from parents because "it's your job," very much would. I run my Brownies because I genuinely enjoy it, and love seeing the girls flourish and have fun.

But I'd love to hand over risk assessments, waiting list management, endless bloody form- filling, to someone in a paid role! I'd also love an online system that is fit for purpose.

I don't personally think all of it is necessary. However, i don't know cause I never managed to join. It might be a case of different culture has different expectations and because our way feels more familiar and everything has been fine, it makes all yhe extra seem unnecessary. So a very biased opinion.

I don't actually want to be paid as a leader. I earn enough in my (full time) day job that any pay for my 1.5 hours a week (because you can guarantee they wouldn't pay for any of the planning/admin time!) wouldn't make any difference to me, but the expectations from parents because "it's your job," very much would

This is true - expectations from some parents (not all, luckily the majority are lovely) are already ridiculous and unrealistic - if they considered leading to be our paid job, it could become unbearable.

To be honest I wonder if it's being affected by the lack spare time people have, so difficulty securing volunteers, and the unprecedented variety of hobbies on offer to children now. My daughter goes to brownies and I end up staying to supervise once or twice a month. It's a bit of waste of time. They do a half arsed craft then dick about playing wink murder for the rest of the session. I'd never complain because the leader is a friend and she's giving up her own time to run the group, unless I'm going to volunteer to run it myself then I'm not going to criticise.

But yeah, if she had to give something up it would absolutely be brownies, I think most of the other parents would say the same. I haven't encountered any parents in real life who care a great deal about it being girls only.

I’m a leader and enjoy it but it is time consuming. I also work ft in a professional job. Guiding is absolutely thriving in our area.
There are lots of experienced leaders willing to give time and we are an affluent area so can do things that cost money. We run a really varied program lots of life skills, trips, speakers, cooking etc. But it takes time and contacts. The girls go to a mix of schools and like seeing their friends each week.

I think it depends on the leaders.

We (Brownies) have done some sewing and the girls do love cooking, crafts and acting/singing. Over the last couple of years we have also done the following:

Night hikes (several)
Evenings at our local campsite (lighting fires, cooking, etc.)
PGL weekend
Football evening (the girls all played as no boys to judge them)
Kickboxing session
Swimming
Climbing wall
Visit to the Fire Station
Day at the Air Tattoo (RIAT)
Canoeing
Litter picking
Grass sledging

Ultimately though, activities have to be a mix of what leaders would like to encourage the girls to do and what the girls want to do.

I was turned of from GG and would not sign my kids up because of their stance on atheists, which they only adjusted a few years ago. It was so bigoted and took them so long to adjust that by the time they did I no longer wanted anything to do with them. I find it somewhat shocking that it was legal. I can't imagine anyone nowadays being able to set up an organization that offered membership to everyone except those with one particular belief.

In any case, that, more than the trans thing (which I also find shocking - especially the shared sleeping accommodation, and allowing adult men who identify as women into the same roles as women) was what stopped me volunteering or sending my kids, though I'd have liked a girl only space for them. One of my DDs wanted to join Scouts when she was older, I didn't stop her, but I won't volunteer and I'd be the same way with if it had been Guides.

To put it simply, LEGAL PROTECTION.

If something went wrong on an activity and a child was lost/injured/killed, the parents would, rightly, want the person in charge prosecuted and/or would want compensation. Girlguiding has insurance to cover that, including to protect leaders from personal liability - I love providing activities for the Brownies but certainly not at the expense of my freedom and the roof over my children's heads. How does girlguiding ensure it has communicated the correct procedures to leaders (and that they have understood them) so that they are covered by insurance? By getting them to complete a course/pass a qualification.

My daughter in law who lives in Co Antrim was told that girls are enrolled as babies and her 4 yr old didn't have a hope of getting in.She's now a very happy squirrel.

I thought girl guides banned trans? Is it not girls only?!

@whattodo...Icouldn't have put it better than you

Apologies, I meant toʻ quote @tropicaltrance

The atheist/agnostic thing was changed in 2013, but Scouts changed theirs only later. It does seem odd given the UK hasn't been super religious for a long time. Would make more sense in the US where Scouts for boys & girls is much more politicised and associated with religion.

Before these extra procedures were brought in, how did insurance/legal issues work?

I agree these things are necessary - it's just difficult that they seem to put people off. I really hope they can attract more volunteers?

Scouts changed the year after Guides, IIRC. Both just over a decade ago There had been pressure on them for years before.

There have been some high profile inquests with regards to deaths on scout outings which were not properly managed or risk assessed, safeguarding procedures have been tightened in light of historical safeguarding failures, financial matters have been tightened to align with charity commission governance rules. So it is external factors driving some of the changes. But obviously that has a big impact on expectations of volunteers.

To everyone saying that they sent their daughters to scouts instead of guides due to the trans issue, do you ever agree to mixed sex accommodation on residentials/ camps? And if not, how do you know that there is not a trans girl in a girl allocated tent? Or is it just the principle of GG being a single sex space that is the issue?

The scout trans policy says: Information about an individual’s trans identity is confidential and you must not share this with others without that person’s consent.

Then the accommodation bit says:
To make sure all members feel included you can:
Make a range of different sleeping options available to all members, including mixed-sex accommodation, single and multiple occupancy tents or dorms, or compartment tents with single rooms in them that a young person could discreetly use.
Speak to the young person discreetly about what would make them feel comfortable and included. Avoid making assumptions about what this will look like, but be aware that having access to a private space may be important.
Ask who they'd be happy to share accommodation with.

So no mention at all of tent allocation being on biological sex or that you would even know whether eg. There was a trans girl in a girl allocated tent. Does anyone have insight on how it works in practice?

Girl guiding was brilliant for my kids. Eldest definitely benefited from being a female only space. She was a quiet, shy child and her class at school was dominated by loud and frankly unpleasant boys. Youngest benefited from doing things we’d never do with her - lots of camping, climbing, canoeing etc. she also enjoyed doing crafts.
If it had been mixed sex they wouldn’t have gone.

Money seems to be a huge issue here - I offered to volunteer for my daughter’s unit and they can’t afford to put me through the training that’s required. As a parent volunteer, there’s a limit to how often I’m allowed to stay for a session without having had the training - I think it’s twice a term or something. It seems silly when they sometimes can’t run as they don’t have enough adults to meet ratio, when I’d be willing to stay but they just don’t have the funds

My eldest dd went to both. She started at rainbows. It was 1 woman running it on her own, she obviously did her best. Sessions were mainly crafting and baking in a rented hall. Then my dd got into beavers, the difference was unbelievable. It was so much more well funded. - 2/3 leaders per group with an army of helpers from the explorers. Their own building, trips away , well organised activities. It was no comparison.

It's so hard ro recruit volunteers now; people aren't willing to give up their time so leaders in Girlguiding and in Scouts can end up running multiple sections and feeling that they can't leave as then the sections will have to close. It's such a shame when so many people are working from home some or all of the time. My DH works from home two days a week now so he effectively has four hours more free time a week that he saves on travelling to work. He has taken on a role as school governor which takes up much less than four hours a week. But people will tell you they don't have any time to volunteer.

I think they may be a little mistaken. The training costs nothing - HQ pays. They may mean annual subscription, which historically volunteers had pay as well as girls (so a cost of £50-60 per year per volunteer), but from 2027 this is being removed, so there will be no costs for any volunteers. So if you wanted to volunteer again, you could always ask after March as there will be no costs for any volunteers anymore. Im sorry that you were turned away when you were interested in supporting the unit.

What do Guiding volunteers mean by paying for training? The only training that's paid for in Scouts is First Aid (if an external provider) and Activity permits like Shooting

Edit... cross posted!

Our local brownies, guides and rainbows is thriving, the leaders are amazing, salt
of the earth types, that have done it for years.

I don’t think for one moment they agree that boys would want to dress as girls should join and thus far they haven’t.

I ignore the head office nonsense and think they are bonkers

i aim to volunteer myself if I can ever retire!