To wonder what the future of Girlguiding is.

[Skippythebeercan]

I have run a Brownie unit for many years, and have seen the decline of Girlguding, we have lost so many units and leaders to the point locally our organisation is probably less than half the size it was 10 years ago and is going to shrink again with the loss of more leaders and therefore units imminently. There is a huge disconnect between national Girlguiding leadership and grass roots guiding.

I now wonder what the future holds for the organisation, I personally value the girl only space and think it is important for girls to have this. But, I can see that being lost. A friend suggests she thinks we may start to admit boys and loose our single sex status, I personally think that we may end up merging with the Scouts - both organisations have their differences but do share a founder and many fundamentals, plus I do think each organisation could learn something from the other.

I would be interested in other views on how the organisation may evolve - it may well disappear altogether - possibly sooner rather than later.

I am hoping this thread doesn't become about the trans issue, I appreciate it is divisive but there are other threads. Law suits and this very issue have certainly contributed to Girlguiding's significant image problem on both side of the argument, but there are plenty of other threads about this issue.

DD has just started rainbows and she loves it. We were on the waiting list for five months before we got a space, and it’s the same with all the groups locally. So I don’t think it’s a lack of interest in
girls, more that there aren’t enough leaders for more groups (which I understand, it must be very taxing on the volunteers).
we appreciate all you do.

There was an earlier thread on this and one poster had been so traumatised by her daughter being bullied that she was violently against all girls' spaces. I'm sure most groups are fine but maybe this is one of the issues they should tackle more widely?

Well why don't you use the Scouts then rather than taking the all-girls option away by trying to make guides mixed?

Some people specifically want a single sex thing. If people are so upset by the trans exclusion that you think they'll leave, why did they go to Guides in the first place? Why didn't they go to Scouts if a mixed environment is what they want?

Ive often thought that the DC role should be a paid FT job, which takes on the admin, planning, finances, volunteer recruitment, girl advertising, parent queries, running trips, risk assessments etc of all the units in the district/division. You'd need fewer than paying the unit leaders, but it would take loads of effort off the unit leaders, who could just turn up and deliver the programme each week.

I think most people in the UK believe something like girl guides should be for biological girls only, or change to being mixed. I really don't think that many will be up in arms about Girl Guides sticking to it's USP

Good idea...

I like GG as an all-girls space

But it sounds like you'd be happy if boys were admitted.
Transgirls are boys.

My DD is also at an all girls school

Does the school admit boys?
If not, why not?
Would you be happy if boys were admitted?
Transgirls are boys.

But I (and she) hated what they’ve done with the trans issue recently when they excluded transwomen/girls

Why shouldn't they exclude boys from what is a girls-only organisation?
Transgirls are boys.

Being on the GG payroll would kill your love for GG, believe me.

Leader numbers will drop further as there will be some who won’t want to work in an organisation that excludes trans kids

Oh, I doubt it.

In any case, transboys wouldn't be excluded, because they're girls.

It would just be transgirls who would be excluded, who are boys anyway, and as such they are not entitled to be in a single-sex organisation for girls.

In my city there are many units and several
of those have waiting lists - it’s hugely popular here.

DD started in Rainbows and is now in Guides, and I think she’ll probably stay and do the older groups too.

I didn’t realise it was losing popularity as it’s still very popular here.

In answer to the main question, in our bit of London, there are still long waiting lists, but units are closing due to lack of leaders.

I personally feel (especially during and since covid) there have been massive changes to policies, procedures, training requirements, the programme, which are really hard to keep on top of it you have a life outside GG. Ive had a bit of a break away and have recently returned - im feeling more refreshed to volunteer, but ive also gone part time at work so I think i have more brain space.

I just think the volunteering model doesnt work anymore when you have so many families with both parents working FT long hours and only just staying afloat. It's interesting comments upthread about badge work being like homework - doing badges at home has always been part of GG so I wonder if people are not made clear on what it entails before joining? Or do people just have less time to support now?

One other factor is the cost of hiring a venue is huge now. Ones near us were around £30 an hour and you really need at least 90mins per week. It makes it really expensive when you start to factor in the other costs each term.

I personally think a girl only space is really important and I would even favour a girl only secondary for my own DDs. If we merged with scouts, I would no longer volunteer. So for that reason, I hope it can find a way through its current troubles.

Agree. Same for town carnivals. Not enough people come forward.

Same with village hall committees, community councils, playgroup helpers etc etc.

And with Gala Days and the like, there will be often many, increasingly desperate requests on Facebook/posters etc for people to join the organising committee so that the event can go ahead but then when the event is inevitably cancelled due to no-one coming forward, the outrage from those who want the event to go ahead but won't actually help could be seen from space.

What about retireees who did Guides ? Of course mant are busy looking after grandkids, and the retirement age is rising too...

We're starting to see more counties and regions having paid part time administrators and staff roles. They organise trips and activities that units can sign up to. The admin and planning is significantly reduced as well as giving lots of different opportunities. Yes it adds a bit onto our annual membership fees but definitely worthwhile.
I like the idea of someone running waiting lists and queries for me. I'm forever having to explain that we have a waiting list

Yes this is also very true. I dont begrudge anyone who wants to spend their retirement enjoying life and being a bit selfish. When I think about my DM, she has spent her whole career caring for other people's children. I hope she'll spend her retirement doing what makes her happy - and battling with GG's every changing procedures would not be that for me 🫠 There used to be an upper age limit on leading a unit, but I do believe that has been removed now.

That sounds really good. Im sure i remember LaSER having someone in a role funded by a DCMS grant for a year, and her job was basically recruitment. She sorted loads of advertising for us, managed the campaigns, talked to all the units about what they needed. It was so helpful.

I feel like one reason for the lack of leaders is all the rules. I have been 'qualified' leader for 17 years now and when I moved to UK, I was looking to join scouts or guides (we don't separate them so this terminology will be all over the place) but quite honestly it was a lot of work. It was worse than job hunting. Instead I joined he student scouts and guides (mature student). While I was there, I met few guide leaders and the amount of course they had to take before they were allowed to do anything was surprising. I was talking about all the camps and hikes we had done with 7+yo and silly things we did with the older kids and all the competitions we attended. And how young we were allowed to do stuff. But these leaders had not done any of it cause they were not qualified and many things we did was just straight up not allowed

I remember in Kandersteg there were issues with the brits cause the leaders had to check if they were allowed to forexample take campers on a walk cause they hadn't done the walking course that allows you to use ascending paths. Where as many other other countries did not have any of these rules.

I am not saying this is bad. It was just different. But also it doesn't make becoming a leader attractive for me. I wonder if others feel the same.

I moved back home after uni and I am still in scouts. Me and my partner are looking to move back to UK and as much as I would enjoy going to scouts/guides, I don't think my experience and education counts towards anything. Well, we shall see about being a parent helper when the kids join.

Hi @Skippythebeercan

I was brought up on scouting my mum is a cub leader of 50 yrs and I’ve been around it all my life. Could never commit the time to be a leader with my job but I did run a disability group for 20+ yrs. myself and my mum have discussed many of the issues that have been raised here about GG

The change in parents particularly since COVID is noticeably, The ever increasing and governance and fear of litigation. My mum has noticed the increase in SEN children and diet requirements for camps.

They have a waiting list an no leaders. The group will close when my mum has to stop. When I look around at district camp and the same leaders are there from when I went when I was 8 and I am 50!!

One question for you. If GG was to be at a point that it may fold should scouting review its policy to admit girls?

Why are there so many new regulations? Do they serve a necessary purpose?

I was a guide leader and ranger leader and was also involved in running training etc for leaders in the county. I didn't like the "new programme" introduced in 2018-19 or so - it seemed pointlessly prescriptive and to go against the way we used to build activities around the girls' interests and needs. About the same time I started to be aware of the potential for safeguarding failure re the trans issue, and the two things together meant I lost confidence in the organisation. So I left. My son and daughter both go to Scouts.

One question for you. If GG was to be at a point that it may fold should scouting review its policy to admit girls?

No. They are two completely separate organisations, and it's not up to the Scouts to 'save' GG from going under. It's a bit like saying should the local cricket team not allow girls to join, to prevent GG from folding.

Not that GG need saving, there are plenty of girls wanting to join, there just aren't enough volunteers. Stopping girls from joining scouts would just make the waiting lists for GG longer, it wouldn't resolve the matter, if anything it would just make it worse.

I've done Scouting in the same district as my Guiding and the Venn diagram of issues between both organisations is somewhat round. The key issues are: stability, recruitment and retention of leaders, parental expectations, behaviour of children, supporting needs of children, increased pressure on budgets, and top-down attitudes from HQ. While trans-inclusion is a very legitimate concern, more so in Guiding, but to a lesser extent in Scouting, in the majority of units it isn't a major practical issue.

I fell into Scouting because of leader avaliability while my sons were in the organisation. That included the Covid years when leader avaliability was impacted. Guiding means more to me because it is a single-sex space for me.

A legacy of the Covid years was breaking the chain of young members becoming young leaders and adult leaders. Hopefully a blip, but that natural progression was lost for a few years. My Guiding unit finally has young leaders after a prolonged gap. Hopefully in a few more years, this will translate to gaining more young adult leaders.

Camps were hit hard. The logistics from HQ meant that for a lengthy period, only small group camps for older sections met the criteria. When we were able to resume pack holidays, they were logistically harder due to "training" all participants because the natural chain of learning from older peers was broken. The lengthier legacy has been the loss of some organised camps that never resumed, and selling off assests of Guiding and Scouting residential/ camp venues. This has reduced value, logistically viable opportunities for leaders to organise camps.

Guiding Organiser is a (to put it mildly) fucking nightmare of an administrative system and the beauocratic UMA/ skills builders/ badges must be logged through it. The current programme and its tedious activity cards sold a mythical concept of activities being "good to go". The reality is that it saves zero time on planning and administration and if anything adds to it. We're an active unit and our best nights are the 40% that are off-piste, and we make sure that we have a spread of activities through each term. My sons lamented that they had to do Scouting as my Guiding was more fun.

There is a general societal issue of volunteering not being valued. A significant minority of parents/ participants can be very unrealistic in their expectations (and think that £4 per night is rent, activities and salary for 4 leaders...), yet the critical ones are inevitably the ones who are far too "busy" to volunteer or support. It's not unique to Guiding and is common through the voluntary sector.

Ultimately I've stuck it out for nearly 20 years for the friendship of my team and the fun of working with the girls. I see many of my ex-Brownies at work and they have many special memories of things that we did which is lovely to look back on and remind me how valuable those years and years of giving up an evening a week are no matter how tired I am and how hard it is to leave the house on grim winter nights.

I'm finding the proportion of anxious and clingy parents with inappropriate demands has increased in the last couple of years. This overlaps with the Covid toddlers cohort who didn't have access to toddler groups and support such as HVs so presumably looked to sources like instagram for parenting advice because it was too restricted in real life.

We're experienced, trained leaders, (and have all sucessfully raised our own children to at least the age of our unit) Our risk assessments are all in line with HQ's policies. We're now at the point of pointing this out and saying if they don't like the way we do it, maybe we're not the unit for them.

The purpose of Guiding is to empower and develop girls, not to stiffle and baby them.