To wonder what the future of Girlguiding is.

[Skippythebeercan]

I have run a Brownie unit for many years, and have seen the decline of Girlguding, we have lost so many units and leaders to the point locally our organisation is probably less than half the size it was 10 years ago and is going to shrink again with the loss of more leaders and therefore units imminently. There is a huge disconnect between national Girlguiding leadership and grass roots guiding.

I now wonder what the future holds for the organisation, I personally value the girl only space and think it is important for girls to have this. But, I can see that being lost. A friend suggests she thinks we may start to admit boys and loose our single sex status, I personally think that we may end up merging with the Scouts - both organisations have their differences but do share a founder and many fundamentals, plus I do think each organisation could learn something from the other.

I would be interested in other views on how the organisation may evolve - it may well disappear altogether - possibly sooner rather than later.

I am hoping this thread doesn't become about the trans issue, I appreciate it is divisive but there are other threads. Law suits and this very issue have certainly contributed to Girlguiding's significant image problem on both side of the argument, but there are plenty of other threads about this issue.

How do you have one twin in Brownies (ages 7-10) and one in scouts (ages 10-14)? Surely your Brownie must be leaving her group imminently so can move across to scouts?

I ended up getting forced into becoming a leader (not in charge) of cubs locally a couple of years ago. To prevent it closing. My children are autistic and the group was probably 80% ND.

Understandably a lot of the parents saw it a as respite time for children that often couldn't cope in more structured activities e.g. football clubs etc. But it meant we ended up being very restricted to what activities we could safely do.

To go outdoors needed higher adult:child ratios. We rarely got parents volunteering to help unless it was something particularly exciting when suddenly everyone suspiciously just happened to be free only for that one night. It really wasnt sustainable and when we asked the district for help with what to do about one particular child who consistently disrupted groups in dangerous ways it really wasn't useful.

I'd be quite happy to see the back of it to be honest. I got badges for cleaning, kitchen safety, sewing...not exactly survival skills, more like how to be an obliging wife.

No. The fee that we all pay covers running GirlGuiding nationally and locally. After we pay in February then we will no longer pay for leaders but the cost for girls will increase as it still costs money to run GirlGuiding.

The training is separate to this fee and there are different levels. Everyone who volunteers has a DBS check and has to complete a safeguarding training. This is provided and funded by GirlGuiding (probably in part from the fees that all members pay)

Each unit has to have at least one person with our first aid training qualification. Most have more than one as you can't run a meeting without a first aider

If you want to be a qualified leader to run meetings or take girls away on camp and holidays then there are a lot more trainings that you can do. Again you can only run activities if one of the leaders present has the relevant qualification. But not everyone needs to have all the qualifications.

Remember all leaders are all volunteers. We don't get paid. Some of us get a volunteering day from work that we use for camps and residential. Unit helpers who do the DBS and safeguarding level of training and help out at meetings each week are a vital part of the leadership team. It's also a role where it really is only an hour and a half a week if that is what you want.

I would have said kitchen safety - how not to poison yourself, stab yourself, set fire to yourself - would be useful survival skills but whatever! Girlguiding has moved on from the 1970s even if you haven't.

I'm happy to be corrected on the Brownie front (guiding seems a lot more secretiveon their badge criteria!) ... but they have no Housework type badge now... but Cubs still do

www.scouts.org.uk/cubs/activity-badges/home-help/

LOL I'm 28 😂

No need to get defensive. Someone is allowed an opinion and it doesn’t need to be the same as yours.

It’s actually Beavers, not Cubs – but it’s all Scouts, so …

She likes to go because her best friend from school goes. Unless you know this particular unit, then I’m not sure your opinion of it matters.

It’s Brownies and Beavers. And we call them the Beaver Scouts here, so no harm done to the world , eh?

So how did Girl Guides end up in the mess they're in (over the trans issue)?

I was a Brownie leader for ages and now have a son in (Beaver) scouts.

When the new programme came in for Brownies the girls in my unit were caught in a Catch-22 for doing interest badges at home. Those with interested/involved parents with time to support badges at home were also signed up for other activities after school and encouraged to do reading/times table/music practice - so they didn’t have time for “Brownie homework”. Those whose parents weren’t as bothered about “activities” were also not bothered about getting their girls to go badges.

The Beavers badges seem better organised because you can get a badge for something you’re already doing or interested in (eg swimming, doing a science kit you got for Christmas) without having to do ridiculously prescriptive Brownie versions to tick off the badge. I can see that Girlguiding made a decision not to let girls rack up badges with whatever they were doing anyway - they wanted focused Brownie specific activities for badges - but in reality girls lacked time and/or parental support to do them that way.

Scouts seems to run (here at least) with much higher volunteer numbers than Girlguiding does. I am always amazed when they ask for parent volunteers for a night because they’re “low on leaders” and this turns out to be 3-4 leaders for 12-15 kids! I’d run Brownies for 25-30 with 2 leaders fairly regularly (which was absolutely not ideal but most of our leaders couldn’t commit to every single week). They also have better organisation where some volunteers are doing things for the whole scout group (squirrels up to explorers) so the leaders can concentrate a little bit more on the weekly meetings and trips etc.

By 'being kind', following Stonewall law not actual law, and caring more about boys with gender issues than the actual girls they were set up for.

Because activists got involved and demanded they ignore the law in favour of their demands.

Well quite! This is my understanding as well. So I cannot at all understand the logic of "i dont agree with trans girls in guides, so im moving my daughter to scouts". Because it isnt at all clear to me that scouts are protecting single sex spaces on residentials for girls either. I would not want a my daughters in mixed sex accommodation. I guess she would maybe end up in a single occupancy tent?

There's an issue with anything voluntary tbh. My son just started school so I joined the PTA - there are 7 of us in total and a few people who help out at events. This is in a relatively affluent area with lots of Mums who dont work or have children at home. As a consequence those of us who do volunteer end up either snowed or we cut back on what we do (and then hear complaints about it).

I used to lead a Rainbows unit. I loved the actual meetings and the planning of the activities but what really ground me down was the endless amount of time required outside of this for admin, training and meetings. So I can understand why there is a shortage of leaders for sure. I've got a teaching background so found the class control element plus the planning for what would work in practice pretty easy. But those without that (and there's no training in that) would and did find that harder hence retention of kids was sometimes not great as they lost interest because meetings were chaotic.

When the new programme came in for Brownies the girls in my unit were caught in a Catch-22 for doing interest badges at home. Those with interested/involved parents with time to support badges at home were also signed up for other activities after school and encouraged to do reading/times table/music practice - so they didn’t have time for “Brownie homework”. Those whose parents weren’t as bothered about “activities” were also not bothered about getting their girls to go badges.

This too! Scouting sessions are always about working towards getting badges, and extra things you do (like swimming, a swim stage has an equivalent scouting badge for example) are counted as well.

Our rainbow unit worked towards badges in their sessions, DD has an absolute boxfull- but Brownies don't (no idea why). The session this week, they talked about Australia Day and coloured in a picture! DD has a lot of other activities plus homework on the go, and I'm afraid we just don't have the time.

Scouts allow mixed sex for sleeping arrangements. Changing rooms and toilets are supposed to be single sex but, in practice, I expect trans children probably use whichever facilities they choose.

Not always.

They don't HAVE to be separated by sex. There is a slightly more pragmatic approach than that.

If there is a situation where there is only one girl on a camp, the leaders can make a safeguarding call to put that girl in a tent with boys. But all parties are made aware and have to agree. The leader has to feel that that combination of children isn't a risk to each other. This is based on knowing the kids well enough to make that decision and the fact that it would be more risky to put a girl in a tent on her own or and it would be unacceptable to exclude her from the camp.

If you are following safeguarding you should not mix sex if possible though. The point is to make the less risky decision possible under the circumstances and with the consent of the parents and children of all concerned. (Note parents).

Of course this is less of an issue at age 6 compared to age 16.

The point being the leaders have the discretion here but do have to be able to justify it and produce a risk assessment in doing so.

You have hit the nail firmly on the head.

I am probably a case in point for dwindling volunteers within Girlguiding. I went all the way through from Brownies to Rangers, including spells as a Pack Leader and then a Young Leader for Brownies. I worked with children professionally and am a long term volunteer in other roles, so I am that kind of person - logically I probably should have gone through the movement as an adult leader and be filling a role as a District Commissioner. But I haven’t. There are probably many reasons, but one that hasn’t been mentioned on this thread is the process of keeping in touch.

Quite simply I have never heard a single word from Girlguiding since leaving Rangers aged 18. They never seemed that well organised as a membership organisation, so probably lost touch with huge swathes of girls as they aged-out of the movement. Yes, it was the nineties and before the days of email marketing, but other organisations of that era still managed to send out alumni newsletters etc by post. Would a little bit of contact amid all the jobs and house-moves have kept me interested and motivated to rejoin once I had settled down? Perhaps. But as it is, other interests, causes and volunteering roles have risen up to take that Girlguiding space in my life. I know the organisation has social value, but it just doesn’t really speak to me as a cause that would draw me to volunteer again, compared to some of the other charitable organisations that are around nowadays.

And hasn’t life changed! The three leaders of the Brownie pack where I volunteered were either SAHM or working locally, very part-time. Women just have much less time now and the voluntary sector as a whole is suffering from a downturn in volunteers - NCVO has reported on this.

I am always amazed when they ask for parent volunteers for a night because they’re “low on leaders” and this turns out to be 3-4 leaders for 12-15 kids

Try doing a craft evening with 15 kids between two of you for Beavers and get back to me. The chaos of herding Beavers is completely different to a school class room session (I've done both).

Try running a walk for 15 kids when you have one who trails behind or falls over and has an accident (you have to spare two DBS leaders to stay with this one kid). It's much easier to run with 3 or 4 adults than two.

They aren't being dicks. They are staying within scout safeguarding rules and what works on a practical level.

One of the issues is reliance on parent volunteers, its not compatible with what the government, employers and cost of living are now demanding of parents in terms of working hours. Our local group died because working parents have not got time to commit to volunteer to run it. It could have survived by hiring paid staff and increasing subs to cover it but there's a core of belief within brownies/guides that it has to be cheap as chips.

The second issue is that guides in secondary school has never been "cool". When i was at school its core membership was from churchgoing families, it was heavily associated with the CofE who tended to be conservative and supported its rather old fashioned values and activities and made their daughters attend. The CofE has been in rapid decline for years now with few young families regularly attending church, there's no demand for the purpose that girlguiding once had and they have not successfully redefined.

Women just have much less time now and the voluntary sector as a whole is suffering from a downturn in volunteers - NCVO has reported on this.

I think this reflects the lack of recognition and value given to women’s unpaid work bringing up children and in the community. It is only as women step away from such roles that people notice the gap left.

I loved Brownies when I was a kid. The badges and the crafts. I think there is a bit of a snooty attitude that it wasn’t as good as Cubs because of that. But I had zero interest in camping etc. As an adult I like crafts and sewing and so do several of my friends.
I think if you do like that it’s good cubs are available to girls now. I know families where one daughter is in scouts and one in guides because they like different things.

I felt very pressured to help with Brownies, but DD is ND and it felt like my only break from her. If I helped she would have just hung on to me. She was happy doing crafts and running about. She loved Guides too but they let lots of younger ones join to free up space in brownies and she couldn’t cope with their behaviour.