So upset about ICE killings in Minnesota

[Allotmentblackfly]

So upset about the killings. No investigation and victim blaming from the Trump administration. I see no hope for America. Trump will cancel the midterms possibly elections or will rig them. The most powerful western country - one we thought was our friend is dying
im so sad for the bereaved and do sad for the country

Hitler was democratically elected.

Facism isn’t about how power is gained, it’s about how it’s exercised, eroding checks and balances, sidelining courts, normalising state violence, targeting minorities and treating dissent as illegitimate.

Enforcing the law” isn’t a blank cheque. In a democracy, laws are enforced within constitutional limits. What we’re seeing is unlawful detention, ignoring court orders or violent suppression of protest, that isn’t neutral rule-of-law governance, it’s power operating without restraint.

The ‘majority voted for this’ claim isn’t even on particularly solid ground to be honest, let’s look at Elon and that whole murky back story but probably for another thread.

Except they are not.
Aside from ignoring the legal process as well as the constitution,the number of illegal immigrants in Minnesota is quite low and does not warrant the number of ICEstapo sent in. This is just another example of Mango Mussolini using forces for his own personal beef. Their scope is not limited to illegal immigrants and I’m pretty sure we all know that. It’s just more palatable to deny it 🤷‍♀️

As far as Facism, here’s the Oxford definition which lines up with how I’ve always understood fascism

an authoritarian, nationalistic, right-wing system of government and social organization, characterized by a strong central power, suppression of opposition, aggressive promotion of one's own nation or race, and belief in a powerful leader, originating from Mussolini's Italy but also seen in regimes like Nazi Germany. It involves intense nationalism, often with racial superiority, and a deep contempt for democracy, emphasizing hierarchy and obedience.

I’m not US-based tho

Detaining and deporting illegal aliens is pretty much a basic function of government. Why do you think you have the right to interfere in that process?

i think we can all agree ICE can do better. But so can local governments. And the protestors (don’t interfere in a legal process).

Protesters and federal agents in the same area make for a chaotic situation. Protestors can protest somewhere else, where they will not put themselves or others at risk

ICE are not trained to handle protestors nor should they have to get involved. The Minneapolis PD is more suited to this, but they are not helpful.

Consider this. ICE operate in all 50 states. I can confirm they are operating in my (red state, purple city) hometown.

How is this, then, confined to just one minor American city? Could it be that the support of the local PDs helps reduce the chaos and confusion that protesters at an active operation bring?

Ask yourself why this isn’t happening in LA, Charlotte, Miami, Houston, Dallas? All cities with big, well-known ICE operations?

Something off about Minneapolis/St Paul.

’we can just make bad-faith interpretations of your country’s democratic system, because we don’t care if you voted for it’

If anyone shows a deep contempt for democracy, it’s you.

Read “A Village in the Third Reich”. Careful true study of the rise of Nazism and how normal people acted.

The majority kept their heads down. It wasn’t fear of getting killed but fear of ostracism and your business shutting down. The nasty and the bossy joined in with alacrity policing everyone else. A few heroes risked their lives to help. Actually in the village the majority keeping their heads down knew the two women who were hiding Jewish children but no one dobbed them in.

Indeed, the hallmark of a true democracy is accountability, but here we have impunity instead. Impunity, corruption and injustice are the dark trinity of tyranny.

Yep. There’s definitely something off. What do you think it might be? (Hint - keep in mind who the Governor of the state is, and which way they voted whenever Trump has been up for election).

Heres some helpful figures for comparison to help us assess what’s ‘off’ here

California Estimated 2.3 million undocumented immigrants, one of the largest reported undocumented populations in the US
No reported large-scale ICE surge

Texas 2.1 million undocumented immigrants
No reported large-scale ICE surge. No current reporting of thousands of ICE agents massed in interior cities. ICE active but focused on border patrol not the kind of interior mobilization labelled as the “largest ever” that we’re currently seeing in Minnesota

New York 600,000 undocumented immigrants; no reported large-scale ICE surge. ICE actions continue in NY as part of normal operations, not state-wide militarised deployment.

Massachusetts estimated 300 000 undocumented immigrants
No reported large-scale ICE surge

Minnesota 130,000 undocumented immigrants. Far fewer than the above states and less than 1 % of the national total.
2,000–3,000 ICE and federal agents deployed, a far larger concentrated presence than reported in those other states at this time.

Sources (as opposed to just ‘trust me bro’)
https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-leads-amicus-brief-challenging-militarized-and-illegal

https://apnews.com/article/immigration-enforcement-ice-noem-minnesota-somali-db661df6de1131a034da2bda4bb3d817

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/unauthorized-immigrants-us-2025-fact-sheet?utm

https://acleddata.com/report/confrontations-between-ice-and-protesters-how-does-minnesota-compare-other-states?utm

This idea of ‘stopping harm’ has led to people getting shot.

If you believed drugs should be legalized, are you allowed to just, impede arrests of drug dealers, who do nothing more than sell consumers what they want? Show up at drug busts and warn people that the DEA is coming?

Or do you engage with the democratic process and try to persuade voters?

Your way leads to vigilantes bombing abortion clinics to ‘save babies’, you need to think about that. it’s not the right way to go about things.

In the words of George Orwell from 1984:

”The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was the most essential command.”

The same could be said in relation to the media and ICE supporters too.

It’s much smoother because local law enforcement support ICE and CBP.

Like, how do you not know about the large-scale operations going on in Dallas and Houston right now? Even a relatively minor city like San Antonio deported over 20,000 people in the last six months, it’s a smooth process so you never ever hear about it.

LA had a big operation last spring. They may be quietly assisting to help Newsom’s electoral chances …

Are you all equally horrified and vocal about the killings and human rights violations which have been ongoing for years in other countries?

More bad-faith arguments. You’re tying yourself in knots to defend misuse of state power while pretending it’s just neutral “law enforcement”.

Your comparisons don’t work unless you assume ICE is acting lawfully and in good faith. The problem is that they aren’t and everyone can see it.

If this were really about illegal status, they wouldn’t be arresting people at their own legal court hearings. They wouldn’t be detaining so many people either US citizens or there legally.

If it were about respecting the law, they wouldn’t be repeatedly acting against judges’ orders.

If it were about taxes, they wouldn’t be raiding tax records to find targets, turning compliance into a risk.

The facts contradict every bit of the story you’re trying to tell. The drug dealer and abortion clinic analogies fall apart, just false equivalences used to avoid grappling with what ICE is actually doing.

And blaming “the idea of stopping harm” because someone got shot gets it backwards. In a democracy, when the state uses lethal force, the burden is on the state to justify it lawfully. Shifting that responsibility onto people who object isn’t defending democracy, it’s excusing abuse of power.

History is full of people who told themselves they were just being “reasonable”, just backing “the law”, just opposing disorder. Later, those same people watched the trials and realised they’d been on the wrong side, contorting logic to defend something that should have horrified them.

That’s the side you’re arguing from here.

Nope, wrong again.

Minnesota doesn’t even have the undocumented population to justify this level of action. If this were really about numbers, enforcement would be concentrated in California, Texas or New York, not a state with a comparatively small undocumented population and a suddenly massive federal presence.

On top of that, LAPD explicitly does NOT participate in ICE raids, so the idea that LA is “smooth” because local police are helping just isn’t true. And the San Antonio claim mixes up statewide Texas arrest figures with deportations a single city doesn’t even have the authority to carry out.

It’s about wildly disproportionate enforcement and some very loose handling of the facts.

It is so worrying, Nazi Germany again, no one learns. I am so worried for my nephew who is doing camp America in June for 6 weeks, then travelling around the US for 6 weeks, it won't help that he is black either . No one is safe.

It has directly effected her. And me too. If you have any human feelings, compassion, sense of justice, right or wrong, how could it not?

Are you really saying you're never impacted by something unless it's actually happened to you? That's very concerning (for you!) if that's the case.

My way? Not wanting impunity instead of accountability? I am arguing that an unaccountable militia operating without transparency and with full impunity is what needs to be fought against. Recording its activities and helping vulnerable people being unnecessarily roughed up are not the actions of vigilantes, they are the actions of concerned citizens engaging with their civic duties.

Blah blah ‘what about ….’

You tell us the ones you care and are vocal about then, and what you’re doing to speak up for the people whose rights are being violated?

You don’t get to dismiss concern about one injustice by demanding a complete inventory of everyone’s outrage about every injustice everywhere. That’s not moral seriousness, it’s deflection.

America isn’t just “another country”. It presents itself as the so called ‘leader of the free world’. Like it or not it sets norms other democracies follow, and exerts enormous political, legal and cultural influence globally.

When the US normalises unlawful state violence, contempt for courts and repression of dissent, that doesn’t stay neatly contained inside its borders.
If a government that claims to champion democracy starts sliding into authoritarian behaviour, that should worry everyonewho lives in a liberal democracy.

I know you think you’re being clever or showing up hypocrisy or whatever, but suggesting we ignore this because “worse things happen elsewhere” isn’t being clever or setting you up as some principled font of global concern, it just shows you’re not really concerned about ANY human rights abuses and encouraging others to sleepwalk further into the erosion of standards everywhere.

Obama and Biden deported far more than Trump has.
By all means protest lrgally but if you try and stop / interfere with illegals being rounded up then don’t be surprised when something bad happens, especially if you use a car as a weapon or carry a gun.
The ‘protestors’ aren’t brave or principled, they are radicalised by terrorists. Smashing up cars or hotels that they ‘think’ hold Ice personnel is Anarchy, not legitimate protest.
Neither is the use of Noise torture.

I’d be using water cannon on them.

The hyperbolic talk of ‘Fascism’ is ridiculous, the Far Left are the Fascists - the word is as meaningless as it was when Women who objected to Trans ideology were called it to try and shame them - look at how well that turned out.

Has anybody noticed what's ongoing in Iran - just to provide context.

DT was elected on a pledge to stop and reverse illegal immigration, which is what he is doing. Why do these people feel entitled to obsruct ICE in doing their job?

Your comparisons don’t work unless you assume ICE is acting lawfully and in good faith. The problem is that they aren’t and everyone can see it

The problem is it works everywhere else but Minneapolis. The local PD does not assist in crowd control unless it turns into a riot, good luck getting the local authorities to actually charge protestors for obstruction.

If this were really about illegal status, they wouldn’t be arresting people at their own legal court hearings

They are asylum seekers. They need not be in the community to have their case heard. They can wait at a dedicated facility and have a hearing there, as was the practice under Obama.

They wouldn’t be detaining so many people either US citizens or there legally.
If it were about respecting the law, they wouldn’t be repeatedly acting against judges’ orders

There have been very few US citizens arrested. Actually a pretty good arrest rate (ie vast majority are illegal aliens)

If it were about taxes, they wouldn’t be raiding tax records to find targets, turning compliance into a risk

Tbh they need to be using tax returns to find and deport them. Employers don’t get a pass either.

The facts contradict every bit of the story you’re trying to tell. The drug dealer and abortion clinic analogies fall apart, just false equivalences used to avoid grappling with what ICE is actually doing

No, they are good examples of situations where people wrongly believe their personal morality outweighs the democratic process.

In a democracy, when the state uses lethal force, the burden is on the state to justify it lawfully

Im sure they’ll have some sort of hearing over Alex’s shooting (but not Renee’s, that one is pretty straightforward)

Shifting that responsibility onto people who object isn’t defending democracy, it’s excusing abuse of power

Oh, you can object. You cannot obstruct.

History is full of people who told themselves they were just being “reasonable”, just backing “the law”, just opposing disorder

It’s also full of radical leftists that try to take control via undemocratic means and the centrists too cowardly to stop them.

Their job is not to brutalise, even less kill, people on the streets. They ARE supposed to follow a process. Why is it that we're see those abuses now? ICE has existed for two decades. No one was obstructing their job before. But now, their methods have grown utterly unacceptable. Those methods should be reigned in and thoroughly reformed. That's not hard to understand, but the powers that be love the violence.

Yes, funny how all the ‘Celebrities’ and loudmouths speaking out are absolutely silent on the Human rights abuses and mass executions in Iran.

Sheep, the lot of them - being told what is ‘Good’ or ‘Bad’ without the brainpower to look for themselves.