So upset about ICE killings in Minnesota

[Allotmentblackfly]

So upset about the killings. No investigation and victim blaming from the Trump administration. I see no hope for America. Trump will cancel the midterms possibly elections or will rig them. The most powerful western country - one we thought was our friend is dying
im so sad for the bereaved and do sad for the country

I am not blaming him. I am asking where was the Minneapolis PD to provide support with crowd control? ICE/CBP shouldn’t have to even deal with them, as their targets are illegal aliens.

"They were just doing their job"

The same was said about the Brownshirts. If you don't know about this part of history, you should do some research.

I am not someone who could stand by and let someone "do their job" when it involves things like this
https://youtube.com/shorts/8usGySc12kk?si=0Wj71cEeJ2kfKOHk

People who are doing a job that involves detaining people and carrying firearms should have sufficient training to do so in the least traumatic way, and training to deescalate situations rather than using six people to restrain and beat a bystander before shooting him half a dozen times.

...and Bosnia.

I don’t care one way or the other about this incident.

But, that is a darn good point!

He didnt need 'dealing with' that's the point.

You can use the exact same justification for abortion clinics you know.

‘Nazis started with eugenics and getting rid of the poor, unfit and disabled, just like abortion!!!’

Your personal morality doesn’t outweigh the social good nor does it hijack the democratic process.

Christ you're grasping at those straws arent you

It’s a salient example of a ‘moral’ issue that the left understands has deep social consequences if you give in to it.

I said sympathy, not concern.

Their military is no better. Just as arrogant. Just as Ill disciplined. And not particularly well trained. But well armed.

Anyway, it's nothing new. Kent State University for example...

well not really- it is actually a good example of how you are reframe any argument a different way and how you see the world will reflect how you interpret the things around you.

in my view there is a law in the US that the officials are enforcing. That is democracy in action. Anyone preventing the officials enforcing the law is acting undemocratically. You might disagree because you see the world differently but to me the law is there and it is an enforceable as any other law. There is should be no grey area once a law is in the books.

But people are completely within their rights to protest the law itself. Go and campaign to have the law changed. Cause a fuss to get democratic change. That is completely ok- that is how change is enacted. If enough people vote for that change then you have done your job. Then the officials will have to enforce the law as it has become.

As he was at a protest then I assume that’s what he was doing - protesting the law. And documenting the actions of the ICE agents, and helping a woman who was pushed to the ground by them, his last act was to try to protect her.

He was executed for it.

You can make all the academic arguments about morality you like, it doesn’t make you clever.

Eugenics is not the same as abortion. One is forced and the other is a choice.

Detaining people because of who they are, and beating and killing people who are legally protesting are the same as detaining people because of who they are, and beating and killing people who are legally protesting.

Indeed.

I cannot get my head around how quickly all of this has escalated and how this is happening in a country like America. It doesn’t make sense. It’s terrifying and the comments on social media from Americans (some, not all) seem to be in favour of what is happening. That is not human.

No. Protesting the law would be protesting outside congress or the senate. It involves lobbying your elected officials.

all the protesters there were protesting the law’s enforcement by impeding those officials carrying out the enforcement. That is subverting democracy.

don’t get me wrong, doesn’t mean anyone deserved to get killed for that but that is a key distinction.

He was not impeding anything. He just tried to reach for a woman who had been violently pushed to the ground. He was a nurse. That's what medics do.

But the current victim was most likely killed for (legally) having a gun on him. Your husband’s comment makes no sense here.

I have seen people on other forums arguing we should try to understand both sides. Fair enough, except in this case people on the "it was right for him to be shot" side keep on saying things that are easily demonstrated to be untrue.

Exactly the best way to combat an authoritarian regime that suppresses the right to disagree is to ban those who disagree with this.

Legal protest can happen anywhere.

I don't know what happened 5 minutes before the video we saw. Perhaps this man was impeding them carrying out their legal duty to detain a person.

But in the immediate build up to the shooting, he was not a threat.

iCE need more training. Their current actions are a threat to all who live in America.

I would be protesting the law, and the way it is being enacted. It is sickening.

What is happening in the US is the very definition of fascism 🙄

And how would you define fascism?

Explain. There is a law enacted by democratically elected officials that prevents people being in the country illegally. The government is enforcing it. That is very definition of democracy. I would expect the authorities to enforce the laws on the statute book without fear not favour.

ICEstapo are doing exactly what Mango Mussolini has instructed them to do so I wouldn’t hold your breath on the training aspect. These thugs are totally getting off on the violence they are perpetrating 🤷‍♀️

No. Protesting the law would be protesting outside congress or the senate. It involves lobbying your elected officials.
Protesting the law has never only meant standing outside Congress and politely lobbying politicians. A lot of protest has always been about stopping harm where it’s actually happening. If the harm comes from how a law is enforced, then protesting enforcement makes sense.

”Officials” - is a stretch. It implies ICE are some properly vetted, properly trained law enforcement body. Plenty of evidence that this is not the case, not least their complete inability to de-escalate a situation.

‘Their job’ - some examples of which (all easily verifiable from credible sources):

• Detained a 5-year-old child despite no warrant, no removal order and no legal necessity, raising clear due process concerns under the Fifth Amendment. Look up Liam Ramos
• ICE removed a 2-year-old child, Chloe Renata Tipan Villacis, from Minnesota to a Texas detention facility in direct violation of a federal judge’s order, undermining judicial authority and due process
• Too many examples to list where ICE has detained US citizens after failing to verify identity, holding them without legal basis. These have been recognised as unconstitutional seizures under the Fourth Amendment. Look up Marco-Antonio Lopez Garcia
• Federal courts have ruled that ICE agents carried out warrantless home entries and arrests without probable cause, violating Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. Examples here
• Judges have found ICE actions violated First Amendment rights by detaining, pepper-spraying or intimidating peaceful protesters and legal observers engaged in constitutionally protected activity.
• ICE has detained people lawfully present in the US, including asylum seekers with active cases and no removal orders, despite lacking statutory authority to do so

Did you see the size of the protests in Minnesota? Have you listened to the first person accounts coming out from there? The people setting up food pantries to feed neighbours too scared to go food shopping? The volunteers standing outside kindergartens and elementary schools to try to ensure ICE don’t pick up any more children on the basis of brown skin and not much more? Have you heard the stories of those who have been detained?

Do you really think they’re still at a point where politely emailing their representative is going to do anything.

Do you honestly think ‘comply or get shot repeatedly in the head’ is a fair enough state of play.

Worth pointing out that I’ve tried to give examples where ICE have acted outwith their legal mandate and detained people legally entitled to be there, but EVEN if these people were not legally there it’s still not ok to treat them this way. Your concern for following the democratic process and acting within the correct legal framework is somewhat misplaced here don’t you think? It’s not only on ‘the people’ to follow the law , where’s your concern for what these so called ‘officials’ are doing?