So upset about ICE killings in Minnesota

[Allotmentblackfly]

So upset about the killings. No investigation and victim blaming from the Trump administration. I see no hope for America. Trump will cancel the midterms possibly elections or will rig them. The most powerful western country - one we thought was our friend is dying
im so sad for the bereaved and do sad for the country

Well. If @Gloriia has guns in her house, and a cop car drives past, it appears from previous posts that unless Gloria runs out to declare guns inside, then the cops would indeed have good reason to break down the door and arrest everyone.

These people have to be anonymous because their families are targetted. The left absolutely have to take some responsibility for ratcheting the pitch here.

The left? Have you not heard Trump?

He is making no effort to pretend that this isn’t a political/personal attack on Walz.

If ordinary police officers are identifiable, why not ICE officers? Do you think they are really more at risk than the police are when they arrest actual gang members or control riots? More at risk than the police were in 2020?

Police forces can only function in a liberal democracy* to the extent that they have the consent of the population.

If you disregard the need for consent and govern by force, you are no longer a liberal democracy.

*liberal democracy here meaning the kind of country envisaged by the founding fathers. I know some Americans are allergic to the word ‘liberal’ but I couldn’t think of a better description.

Whose consent? Trump won the election

Rule of law is another pillar of liberal democracy but you're perfectly happy with interference in that

Winning the election does not give Trump absolute power.

That concept underlies the constitution and the structure of the US government.

The whole point is that the ICE agents are not following the rule of law.

If a masked man stops you in the street and asks you to get in a van, what do you do?

OK, let's try this a different way. If you personally believed - with substantial evidence to back you up - that citizens and legal migrants were being targeted, arrested and abused simply because of the colour of their skin, would you stand back and let it happen or would you engage in peaceful protest?

Please don't respond by telling me that you don't think this is what is happening, because that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you what you personally would do if you believed that immigration officers were abusing their power and targeting US citizens and legal migrants because of their ethnicity.

The whole concept of police in democracies is called Police by Consent. It's a Robert Peel Thing. The populous, that is the electorate, give their consent to the elected government to form a Police force, to police them.

I thought Americans were big on this stuff. 1776 and all that. Tyrannical governments, don't tread on me blah blah.

Hopefully the heavy handed police state look will also be unwelcome to the republican anti government types that back Trump as well as the liberals it’s currently aimed at. Sounds like the tide is turning in public opinion there 🤞

Lets unpack what you are saying here.

You state that in a "liberal democracy " the police must act with the consent of the population.

Well on a US "population" level the police forces are operating with the consent of the population as they are operating on policies brought in by the Trump Government which was democratically elected by the majority of the voters.

If on a local level or a protest level, then no the police do not need to operate with the consent of the local or protesters.

The police governed by force in arresting those protesters at the migrant hotels in Essex. Now I'm sure that these protesters had the support of many fellow protesters as well as many in the local community. Does this mean the end of liberal democracy in Essex? Or is it simply the police enforcing national law.

The police governed by force in the BLM riots in 2020, against the wishes of fellow protesters and many in the local community. Was this against liberal democracy or again were they simply enforcing the law.

You are missing out the part about the elected Government of Minnesota not wanting ICE there.

Bit of a big thing to miss out. Republicans being the party of States Rights and all that. Was that not what the US electorate as a whole voted for too ?

Well on a US "population" level the police forces are operating with the consent of the population as they are operating on policies brought in by the Trump Government which was democratically elected by the majority of the voters.

Are you not familiar with the US constitution?

Trump still has to obey the law (much as he might disagree). The whole point is that ICE are NOT obeying the law.

The police governed by force in arresting those protesters at the migrant hotels in Essex. Now I'm sure that these protesters had the support of many fellow protesters as well as many in the local community. Does this mean the end of liberal democracy in Essex? Or is it simply the police enforcing national law.

You might find this link helpful.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/policing-by-consent/definition-of-policing-by-consent

'Policing by consent' is not an invitation to disobey the law. It's an understanding that the population as a whole must trust the police for the police to operate effectively.

People might have all sorts of problems with the police in the UK, but there is still a belief that they are and should be subject to the law.

Trump's government have told ICE agents that they have immunity from prosecution. Can you see the difference?

So what would you do if a masked man asked you to get into a van?

The police governed by force in arresting those protesters at the migrant hotels in Essex. Now I'm sure that these protesters had the support of many fellow protesters as well as many in the local community. Does this mean the end of liberal democracy in Essex? Or is it simply the police enforcing national law.

The equivalent would not be arrest by police, but masked men rolling up with guns and taking the protestors away in vans.

You can't really take people 1,000 miles away in the UK, but imagine that they are held in a detention centre on a remote Scottish island and then nobody sees them again.

If law enforcement officers are carrying out operations and I bulldoze my way in shouting, goading and being obstructive I would obviously declare my loaded weapon. If they drove past my house no. Hope that helps.

He was carrying a gun in accordance with state legislation.

The only thing he held in his hand was a phone.

They pepper sprayed him, removed his (legal) gun, forced him to kneel and shot him 10x in the back.

If you were shout to a group of police during a protest,

”Hey! I have a loaded gun!”

What would they think? What would they do? What would Noem say?

Ahh right you are.

So you are flexible in how you define " law enforcement doing operations".

You don't think on duty cops driving past your house are doing operations. Operations are only where buldozing doors is involved.

I never saw any doors being buldozed in those vids.

By your own logic then, the nurse had no need to declare he was armed.

You still haven't answered my question.

If a masked man turns up at your door and tells you to get into his van, what do you do?

No, they aren't accepting it in every other city or state.

The Portland Frog became a national icon when a ICE pepper sprayed straight into a costumed protestor's air vent. I believe that the use of whistles to alert the community was pioneered in Chicago. And now ICE are in Maine so the locals have turned out in force. There will be plenty more examples across the US that didn't make the national headlines.

Neither Walz or Frey have incited anything. Frey's speeches have explicitly called for calm. The Trump administration sent thousands of agents into Minnesota (remember, a state a long way from the Mexican border with almost no undocumented migrants) specifically to inflame tensions. It helps Trump at the mid terms if he can reduce turnout by intimidating people in swing states. And then Noem, Bovino, Bondi etc. have poured fuel onto the flames by slandering the victims with outrageously transparent lies.

Nor are there "agitators" on the ground. At least not on the side you claim. The only agitators are the likes of Jake Lang, the racist who turned up to cause trouble by ranting about Muslims through his microphone. He didn't get beaten up though, he just got silly-stringed and water-ballooned.

Alex didn't set out to go to a protest. This wasn't an organised demo or whatever, this happened spontaneously when ICE turned up. It's pretty unremarkable for an American in an open-carry state to be in possession of a firearm.

ICE wouldn't have issues doing their job if they were actually doing their job (rather than being sent en masse to opposition cities to cause trouble) and doing it legally. In a civilised country, people have rights to protect them from government overreach. The US used to claim to be such a country.

Because he makes his claims without evidence. There is on the other hand substantial evidence of his attempts to fiddle elections - he even boasted about Elon fiddling machines in Pennsylvania.

Besides, there is a long history of voter suppression in red states.

How do you know that they're law enforcement officers?

They wear masks, have no proper uniforms bar a flak jacket that may or may not have a "police" patch on it (any embroiderer could produce that). They don't present badges or court warrants and they have no collar numbers.

They could be anyone. How are people to know that it is law enforcement who are trying to abduct them and not cartels?

@Gloriia has completely ignored my question. I can't imagine why.

I don’t know why people are surprised!

What do people expect when a convicted rapist and criminal narcissistic felon is given powe, it should NEVER have been allowed.

He causes chaos everywhere he goes, he has given uneducated everyday people with little to no training , given them power and a badge to become ICE “officers” and we are now witnessing people being murdered in broad daylight.

Trump will go to prison for his crimes and the ICE killers will be prosecuted, but it will be the next president who will do this, not this orange clown!

There's nothing stopping them from visibly displaying a number that would allow for misconduct allegations to be investigated properly.

They wear masks so that they can't be identified and sued when they breach people's civil liberties.

"Rule of law"? Like the constitution that includes a right to free assembly, a right to due process, protection from unreasonable searches and protection from cruel and unusual punishment. For that matter it also includes a right to "bear arms" - not something I'm a fan of, but it's in there and ICE routinely breach all five of those rights.