To be so scared and horrified about ICE?

[BarbaraVineFan]

Sorry, I know there must be other threads about this, but I’m lying in bed alone , feeling really terrified about what’s going on in the US right now and what it will lead to. I keep seeing videos saying that Trump’s administration is behaving as though they don’t have to worry about winning an election because they will just seize power. I also saw a couple suggesting that this is the start of civil war. I think it’s such a dark time for the world and I am genuinely worried for my 6 year old DD’s future.

Indeed. A lot of people support democracy right up until the vote doesn't swing their way, at which point it becomes pretty clear they can't handle being told "no".

Somebody above asked me "so what are we supposed to do....wait four years until the next election?" Yes, that's exactly what you do in a democracy. I don't like Trump but that's who the American populace voted for. Had they voted the other way people would absolutely not take kindly to Trump supporters suggesting they need to 'do something' as they couldn't possibly wait until the next election.

Yes! Perhaps the bruising was on his hand from the kickback of firing his gun multiple times at an unarmed woman.

Well absolutely. That’s why democrats didn’t try to stage a violent insurrection like.. oh yes… Now, if that president who is democratically voted in starts to run roughshod over the constitution, turns law enforcement upon his own citizens and perform war crimes while threatening peaceful countries? Well that’s the behaviour of a dictator, isn’t it, and it becomes everybody’s problem.

I mean, my kids have learned this at school. When did you forget it?

And if the majority of voters would still rather have him in power?

And in relation to what Tim Walz is advising, do you think that German citizens should’ve remained quiet as the Gestapo got on with it all? And the rest of the world too?

So basically you think enforcing immigration law is akin to Nazism? Is this really where you want to go?

Tis kinda wild that the electorate keep voting a dictator back into power. They obviously see it as a lesser evil than being governed by Hillary Clinton!

Not. Full breakdown and synchronised footage here...

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/17vTxMMEk7/

You are aware Hilary got ~3 million more votes than Trump?

It’s not how the game is played. Otherwise you’d just campaign in California/Texas/Florida/NYC. Totally changes where the candidates target (recall HRC totally ignored Wisconsin because she thought it was in the bag)

The popular vote is an interesting data point, but it doesn’t really matter all that much.

I don’t want to live in an authoritarian state where the end always justifies the means no matter how brutal.

There is a huge difference between targeted immigration enforcement and pulling people off the streets, rough handling them and refusing them legal representation. What is going on in Minneapolis is not immigration enforcement it’s state sponsored terrorising of the entire community.
If you are not white regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen, in the country legally or illegally you are a target. Increasingly white Americans are being targeted too. They are recording license plates of protesters and then handing around outside the homes of those protesters to intimidate them.

There are ways and means of doing targeted immigration enforcement based on intelligence and following the letters of the law. Using trained agents. As proven by Obama’s administration.

This is not that. It’s is thuggery poorly disguised as immigration enforcement.

If you do a little reading around how the Nazi’s rose to power and the tactics they used you will find a lot of parallels.
Not to mention the fact that this administration is using Nazi slogans and music in their campaign.

There is a huge difference between targeted immigration enforcement and pulling people off the streets, rough handling them and refusing them legal representation

What do you think happens when you don’t leave willingly? How many warnings should they get?

If you are not white regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen, in the country legally or illegally you are a target

This isn’t true. It will look that way to you because the majority are not white. But plenty of illegal Irish/Russians for example have been caught too.

They are recording license plates of protesters and then handing around outside the homes of those protesters to intimidate them

Actually they should be arrested since they are doing much more than peacefully protesting. You are not allowed to interfere with ICE operations

There are ways and means of doing targeted immigration enforcement based on intelligence and following the letters of the law. Using trained agents. As proven by Obama’s administration

Obama caught people at the border, detained them in a specialized detainment facility, and deported them from there. They never set foot in the community for the most part although workplace raids took place as usual.

Biden fucked up by instituting catch and release, where millions have moved to sanctuary cities to wait for some court date (or not) and won’t leave, even when asked to do so.

What was Biden’s justification for that?

Why worry about ICE when there is such a smorgasbord of tasty world conflicts to choose from? I worry about global destabilisation but in terms of numbers ICE is small potatoes compared to Ukraine or Iran. Do you spose it’s cos it feels nearer because we are culturally so Americanised?

Thanks I hadnt seen that analysis by the NY Times. It does state at the end it's inconclusive as to whether the car contacted the agent.

What happened would need to be scrutinised in court. The issue being many on the jury would have pre decided due to articles such as the NYT one. Within hours they put out their take, and that too will be in line with an editorial stance / agenda.

So really it would be hard to conduct a trial with jurors that hadn’t already determined the outcome, which you mentioned below.

There is a huge difference between targeted immigration enforcement and pulling people off the streets, rough handling them and refusing them legal representation
What do you think happens when you don’t leave willingly? How many warnings should they get?
Then find them lawfully and detain them. Which is not what ICE are doing. And detain them in lawful ways, go to court get a valid warrant and arrest them lawfully. Not pluck people out of moving vehicles leaving the unoccupied but moving car to roll down the street. Don’t target school pickup lines where you terrify all the children present. There are lawful ways of doing it without causing chaos on the streets and terror in communities.

If you are not white regardless of whether or not you are a US citizen, in the country legally or illegally you are a target
This isn’t true. It will look that way to you because the majority are not white. But plenty of illegal Irish/Russians for example have been caught too.
It is true. There have been numerous reports of racial slurs being used. Anyone whose face does not fit is far more likely to be targeted. To suggest otherwise is quite simply absurd.

They are recording license plates of protesters and then handing around outside the homes of those protesters to intimidate them
Actually they should be arrested since they are doing much more than peacefully protesting. You are not allowed to interfere with ICE operations
There is absolutely nothing illegal about protesting or recording ICE officers. In fact I believe the right to protest is bound in the constitution. The vast majority of people out protesting are doing so out of concern for their friends and neighbours and their community at large. There is nothing wrong or illegal in that.

There are ways and means of doing targeted immigration enforcement based on intelligence and following the letters of the law. Using trained agents. As proven by Obama’s administration
Obama caught people at the border, detained them in a specialized detainment facility, and deported them from there. They never set foot in the community for the most part although workplace raids took place as usual.
Biden fucked up by instituting catch and release, where millions have moved to sanctuary cities to wait for some court date (or not) and won’t leave, even when asked to do so.
So continue to do so. And use properly trained agents to lawfully and humanely find, detain and deport those who are not there legally. Use proper targeted enforcement. The biggest issue is the way ICE are conducting themselves and the way they are being used as a weapon to induce fear and create conflict. You are a fool if you cannot see what Trump is doing here. It’s classic divide and conquer. All done to create chaos so he has reason to use the insurrection act and delay the midterms. He is out of control.

Not answering your question but we were in Rome in October and had a day trip to Pompeii, when we came out of one of the train stations there were police asking people who weren't Italian for their "papers". Husband had his driving licence, I had nothing apart from my Barclaycard, I did panic. Saw loads of tourists stopped but they all had id. I do wonder what would have had happened if neither of us had any id at all but I assumed we'd be detained. ICE probably wouldn't have taken my Barclaycard as ID I suspect.

@KTheGrey ,

The U.S does have a unique position in the world, so what happens there affects everyone far more than most other conflicts. It also feeds into them.

I am still unsure over whether the U.S is just going through a less democratic phase in order to reverse some of the ‘wokeness’ which I do think was damaging, or is on a path to a far more autocratic and less democratic society.

If the latter, and Trump is happy to focus on ‘his’ hemisphere whilst letting China have the East and Europe to fend for herself, it is worrying.

And, if ICE become his personal militia, that would be a really dangerous and unpleasant precedent for all of us.

I do think Trump has confronted some real issues that previous incumbents have found difficult to deal with (open borders, drug crisis, subsidising NATO, growing semi-legalised anti semitism), but it has been at the expense of respect for democratic processes and institutions. ICE is a big example of this.

I think Trump is very old fashioned. He has talked about the Monroe doctrine and the US has a fierce tradition of militia and right to bear arms and is a much more violent society generally than our corner of the world. Also the US police often seem to be a law unto themselves. The ICE behaviour can be seen as a step back towards their norms (pre BLM) rather than a huge step towards authoritarianism that nobody could see coming.

America’s biggest problem is imo the lack of a coherent and sensible opposition. The democrats had four years to produce a convincing strategy for the US and they wasted it trying unsuccessfully to imprison Trump and to get a misfortunate old age pensioner with memory problems into the White House as a puppet President for a second run, and then putting forward the VP without proper process.

While the opposition consists of citizens annoying the men with guns the mess will continue. The Democrats should regroup and have a proper think.

This is what I suspect is really happening. If they can stir people up enough to protest enough then they can use that as an excuse to take control...

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1JK99Wpxqr/

I am not defending either Renee Good or the ICE agent. I am definitely not excusing Renee Good’s killing — it was absolutely horrendous and heart-breaking. I am just asking and answering questions. Why did she not see the gun? Why did she not stop when he pointed a gun at her or after he fired the first shot? The second and third shots fired by the agent through an open window may have looked at first indefensible, but may also have been an automatic reaction on the agent's part because Renee was still driving her vehicle. Did she really think she could escape? Why did she not stop? As others have suggested, after the first shot the car might have gone on and potentially injured or killed others. We don't know what she was intending to do.

However, unlike some people, I have not picked a side yet or concluded that the agent or Renee good are 100% guilty. I am trying to look at all the facts as best I can, including relevant Minnesota law. I only mentioned adrenaline in response to another poster’s question about why the agent appeared to be able to walk away relatively easily after possibly being hit. I wasn't trying to defend him.

Can I please ask you to stop saying “Renee Good was shot multiple times in the face”? Unfortunately, she was shot in the arm, the chest, and the side of her head. I’m not sure why people keep repeating that she was only shot in the face, as if the agent had unlimited time to deliberately aim only at her face because he obviously wanted to “execute her.”

The agent has had many death threats, so am sure someone will kill him soon and make him pay. That will make a lot of people very happy because we won't have to continue to to defend him or Renee Good.

I am heartbroken for her children. RIP Renee Good.

A reminder that the political right doesn't have a monopoly on conspiracy theories.

She probably didn’t see him till the last moment. She was in discussions with another ice agent who was approaching her car with the aim of pulling her out of it. She looks back in the review mirror to reverse and that is when the officer who shot her steps into her path. She’s dealing with the officer to her left whilst attempting to go right. So there is a good chance she didn’t see him or didn’t register what he was doing till split seconds before she was shot. It all escalated so so fast

Tbh it’s still unclear what they were trying to accomplish. Some say they were attempting to tackle inflation with cheaper labor (asylum seekers were given work permits, this became a huge pull factor) and it just got out of control.

This was a very interesting piece on it: www.nytimes.com/2025/12/07/us/politics/biden-immigration-trump.html