To wonder if past trauma was a factor in the Renee Nicole Good murder and that, while not absolving agent, it shows ICE should select agents more carefully?

[Carla786]

Reading this from the BBC, I wonder if the agent was suffering from previous trauma. They had earlier been in the Iraq War and then had huge number of stitches after being dragged by a car while arresting apparently a 'child sex offender' illicit migrant last March.

Thus I wonder if, because Renee Good clipped them with the car earlier(as The Times indicates), shooting at her car as she drove past was less a rational decision borne from evil and more an instinctive reaction from recent trauma with cars on the job?

This is NOT an excuse. But I wonder if it also shows that ICE are selecting traumatised agents who are too dangerous, due to this, to be in that position?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdx4qd4d16no

Do you mean the murder of Sonya Massey? That involved hot water.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sonya_Massey&ved=2ahUKEwj55MfkvoaSAxWpT0EAHT4tKtEQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3tVLaiN4w4bksFHyaCuaMS

You would have shot her in the head? 3 times? Even though she was driving away?

I'm glad I've never met you on a dark night... 🤣 you sound a tad thuggish.

Are you an America woman?

Are you actually a person? Seems very doubtful.

One who is sick of seeing these authoritarian, trigger happy posters bandishing their collective thick comments across Mumsnet!

Do you think driving away warrants 'being perceived as a threat' enough to be killed?

I know she clipped the officer with her car, but the 3 shots took place after her car turned to drive away.

Apologies GoldenBear, that was intended for BorgQueen not you.

Good point.

'Do you think driving away warrants 'being perceived as a threat' enough to be killed?'
When the car is surrounded by pedestrians and you are being told repeatedly to get out, yes.

I think it's perfectly possible to agree that there is a serious problem with illegal immigration in the US and still see serious flaws in ICE.

A lot of people are being exploited by criminal gangs, and yes, drugs are involved too often. The US does not have the capacity for all these extra immigrants at this time. They should make it easier to legally apply but they are within their rights to deport people.

That doesn't mean the obvious issues with ICE don't matter. People talk about Obama being 'deporter in chief' but while he clearly made many deportations (which he was within his rights to do), ICE did not cause such havoc and overstep this way during his tenure afaik.

What do the pedestrians have to do with anything?

Also, LE are not allowed to shoot people who don't comply with their instructions.

The pp asked what the threat was I explained if you are in a massive vehicle refusing to follow instructions, surrounded by pedestrians and purposefully heading towards one you pose a threat.
All very sad but preventable.

You think the nazis, who rounded up residents living legally and murdered them in huge numbers is 'the same' as immigration and enforcement officers removing those in the US illegally? How on earth can you make this false equivalence. Maybe criminals should be just left alone to do as they please, would you like that?

Well the Jews and others weren't living legally, the Nazi's changed the law to ensure that.
They also didn't start killing them until later, in the early 30s it was about intimidation, deportation, arrests...

I get the illegal migrants stuff but many of these people have been in the states for years, they do the jobs you lot wont do, they pay taxes, married US citizens, have children... you have by default made them "Citizens"

Then along comes a new POTUS, he changes the laws and now rounds them up, deporting them, holding them in camps...

So whilst not a direct comparison, there are similarities.

Anyway, Ross is a murderous thug, no wonder his wife left him for another woman, having sex with that oaf would put anyone of men for life.

That doesn't mean the obvious issues with ICE don't matter. People talk about Obama being 'deporter in chief' but while he clearly made many deportations (which he was within his rights to do), ICE did not cause such havoc and overstep this way during his tenure afaik

It’s kind of an apples/oranges comparison because Obama admin counted border turnbacks as deportations. There are few border crossings now.

Obama’s policies are interesting in that illegal entrants were typically detained and promptly removed unless they claimed asylum. They’d still be in detention unless they had a solid case (it’s very hard to reach that standard). So Obama was actually pretty good on the border, all things considered.

It all came to a total disaster in the Biden admin. They normalized catch and release, which meant that after you were caught at or near the border, you’d be given summons to show up for a court date in a few months to years—many just abused the system and either disappeared completely or kept delaying through the ‘court’ system (important to keep in mind these are not real courts but more of an admin system). Once people realized that this was the new system, millions of people just flooded the border in just a few years.

As Obama said, never underestimate Joe Biden’s ability to fuck things up …

I've not seen it from a reputable source.

I have seen quotes from the neighbours that she was seen pacing about the driveway in the hours following the shooting and that she and the kids haven't been home since - which would be consistent with staying with her husband when he went into hiding. So I think that we can discount that rumour unless further information surfaces.

So, is ICE just shooting lesbians who apoear to have made a sensible choice, given the alternative, but not all women?

Thank you, that's very interesting. Biden did do some very odd policies. I tend to think this was due to his dementia progressing, though we can't be sure.

'I get the illegal migrants stuff but many of these people have been in the states for years, they do the jobs you lot wont do, they pay taxes, married US citizens, have children... you have by default made them "Citizens".'

• these migrants are in a terrible situation. But a country can't continue allowing illicit immigration. Do you think the UK should also let all illegal migrants here to stay? Many of them are in terrible situations too. But we don't have the resources to stem all their pain by taking them in, and I don't think the US does either.

'no wonder his wife left him for another woman, having sex with that oaf would put anyone of men for life.'

It is quite staggering that regarding such a terrible case a poster thinks it's appropriate to muse about the sex lives of those involved.

I posted on a thread a couple of days and I know it pissed some people off that as a retired Met officer that I didn’t support the ICE officer in this case. My husband also a retired officer and firearms officer at that was of the same mind. Here are some of my further thoughts and having gone and rewatched a couple of videos. For reference one is by a witness Emily Heller and you can find interviews with her online and take a view as to how accurate you think her account is. She states there were 10 or so
protestors and around 6 or 7 ICE cars with multiple agents. I don’t know what the operation was - let’s say it was to arrest 1 or more people. Typically ( if you were a professional ) you’d attend the address, a team at the front and a team at the back and some transportation nearby to transport your prisoners. If it’s a large operation you might block the road to prevent traffic. You would think they might have done that considering their high profile and poor reputation but they apparently allowed vehicles to block them in. Renee is seen in a car which is across part of the road but she does wave one other car by her so it’s tricky to argue that ICE were prevented from leaving. In any case Emily reports hearing the whistles of the protestors and goes outside and can hear ICE agents shouting “ Move, move move” at which point 2 ICE agents including Ross get out an unmarked truck and approach her car. One tries the side door and puts his hands in the open window. Now at this point you might argue she’s causing an obstruction and ignoring the ICE officers but getting her out the car at this stage ( “ get out the car - get out the fucking car” ) is an illogical step. A logical step would be to tell her to fucking move the car for sure. Get the fuck away - I could agree to that as a tactic. She’s being annoying and you want her to leave. You have her licence plate and if you want her to be dealt with that can be done slow time. Getting her out is going to slow your departure - where are you putting her, someone will need to move the car etc etc. Quicker to just let her go and then get out of there but no, we’re pissed off and what to stomp around. So Ross ends up at the front of the car which has its engine running. I’ve already posted my views about that. ( stop referring to body cam since he wasn’t wearing any )

Consider the location of the hole in the windscreen. Does it look like she was facing head on when he fired or does it look like she was at an angle?

Anyway I had lunch with a firearms officer today and asked him his views - “ problematic “ was the understated British response. All firearms officer in the U.K. are medics so we discussed the lack of aftercare / first aid which would have occurred here (and I presume other European countries). His other comment was on how difficult it is shooting through glass because it can have such an unpredictable affect on the trajectory.

I think PTSD could be a factor in any of them - I don’t know what the aftercare there would be following an incident. I should think in some super macho cultures it can be difficult to ask for help. The fact Ross was apparently struck or dragged by a car previously makes it even more incomprehensible that he would choose to do that in this case. Remember she was an annoyance - she wasn’t a high risk offender / gang member that would warrant such tactics.

I still don’t agree that revealing his identify was correct. It’s just compounding mismanagement with mismanagement. I also feel sorry for his wife’s who’s had her picture plastered all over the internet.

'but getting her out the car at this stage ( “ get out the car - get out the fucking car” ) is an illogical step'

Illogical to an alleged retired met officer but those were the very clear instructions nonetheless.

You also posted an offensive comment someone had posted on your LinkedIn contacts for some reason. Did you block/remove them?

@Carla786
I think there was - but I’m sorry I can’t recall which video. For some reason my Instagram was flooded with videos about this incident.

On an aside Fox News (obviously partisan) had a newsreader outline the videos - she observed that Ross actually leaned across the windscreen (so he was out of her tyre range) for the first shot.

The acceleration of the car was after she was shot - so presumably like “dead weight” on the accelerator. She didn’t drive “at” him at all. I mean if Fox News can get it covered accurately.. which they did in that video.. there is no fair way to describe her as driving at him. His own mobile phone video shows clearly what happened

The woman was killed because she tried harming a agent by driving into him. It was her own actions that resulted in her death. Its awful and it's sad.

Renee Nicole Good - not 'the woman' - was not killed because she drove into someone.

Her car did clip him. But he actually shot when she was driving away.