Came home early to stepson - AIBU for not backing DH?

[SoupLong]

I don’t really know where to start and I’m a bit all over the place so bear with me.

My stepson has lived with us full time since his mum died when he was 7, nearly 8. He’s 17 now and in his first year of college. I’ve been in his life a long time and I do love him, but the last couple of years have been very difficult. Behaviour issues, attitude, lying about where he’s been, disappearing for hours. We’ve found weed and I strongly suspect more than that but don’t have proof. DH and stepson argue a lot. They clash badly.

DH’s way of dealing with things is very much stop being so sensitive, stop overthinking, toughen up. Those words have been used. I’ve said before that I don’t think it helps but DH says he’s exhausted and at the end of his rope. Their relationship is pretty strained.

I also have a DD who is 15, nearly 16. She and stepson are extremely close and always have been. Sometimes it feels like they’re a unit and DH is on the outside, which I know doesn’t help matters.

Tonight DH and I went out for a meal locally. Before we left, stepson was acting oddly. Asking how long we’d be, whether we were getting dessert, if we might stay out longer. He kept checking the time. I had a funny feeling and mentioned it to DH, so we didn’t stay out as long and came home earlier than planned.

When we got back they were both clearly surprised. DD was in stepson’s room. He was wearing makeup. Properly done, not messing about. Eyeliner, mascara, lipstick. DD had done it carefully. He wasn’t joking or performing, just sitting there.

DH’s reaction was immediate and cold. Asked what was going on, said it wasn’t appropriate, asked if he’d taken something. Stepson went completely quiet, wiped his face and went into his room. He’s been shut in there since and won’t engage with either of us.

DD is furious. She says DH humiliated him and that he was finally feeling safe enough to open up and now he’ll never trust us again. DH says he’s not having it in his house, that it’s attention seeking and probably drug related, and that I should have backed him instead of standing there saying nothing.

So as not to Drip feed, DH is from a different culture (India)

Stepson self harmed a few years ago, around 14. Cutting. DH reacted very badly at the time. He told him to stop being stupid, accused him of doing it for attention, asked if he wanted to end up in care. I was horrified. We did try to get him into counselling but after a couple of sessions he refused to go back and DH didn’t push it. Stepson has never really forgiven DH for how he handled that and I don’t think DH has ever truly accepted that he got it wrong. He tends to say he panicked and didn’t know what to do.

Also, some months ago we found out stepson had been stealing bras, both from shops and from DD. He denied it initially then admitted it. DH completely lost his temper. Took his phone, grounded him, told him it was perverted and unacceptable. There was no calm discussion, just anger. Stepson barely spoke to us for weeks afterwards.

So tonight doesn’t feel like it’s really about makeup. It feels like all of that rolled into one moment.

DD says she was helping him because he wanted to see what he looked like and felt safe with her. She is adamant there were no drugs involved and I believe her.

I feel stuck in the middle. I think DH’s reaction has probably pushed stepson further away again. DH thinks I’m undermining him and letting stepson do whatever he wants. Stepson is shut in his room and I’m lying here feeling sick with worry that we’re missing something important.

AIBU for not backing DH? Or is he being too harsh and not seeing the bigger picture?

It really should not need to be spelled out step by step by step. Common sense should come into play here, surely. The point is, trans and Autogynephilia is often (though not always) linked. It's a feature, not a bug. And since this can occur, no male at all should be allowed to enter female spaces.

I don’t think I said I’d be ok with it, but I’d probably feel differently about it compared to knickers, yes. I’d at least question it differently. I’ve used the term ‘young man’ myself on here, but again as I’ve also previously acknowledged he is a ‘boy’, not an adult. That doesn’t excuse harmful behaviour, whatever the age, but ‘man’ carries certain connotations as to age, experience and intent, especially pertaining to an almost-16 year old. Children can be capable of unimaginable things so anything’s possible.

I’m not blindly defending someone who could potentially be a rapist or sexual assaulter. I’m (for the umpteenth time) attempting to provide an alternative and just as likely scenario here.

Where we disagree is that you think he’s stealing bras to explore his creative side and that’s it’s not sexual. This story (and it may be all it is) is a very common first presentation of AGP which is inherently sexual.

No one has said AGP males are rapist or sexual assaulters, I’m not sure where that come from. However, there is a transgression of boundaries as part of this fetish, it seems to be part of the fun.

I wouldn’t let my daughter stay in a house where her underwear was stolen as part of an emerging fetish. Maybe he is just aspiring to be the next RuPaul but my job would be to protect her from what I consider unsavoury male sexual behaviour.

ETA : young man vs boy isn’t really the point to me. He’s post pubertal. If he was 15 and daughter was 17 I’d still leave if he was stealing her underwear.

I’m not talking about other men in changing rooms, we’re discussing a specific situation on this thread. When you say no male at all should be allowed to enter female spaces. do you mean the daughter’s bedroom? It’s a house not a public building, but regardless, nobody should have their privacy breached no matter what their gender is.

No one should have their property borrowed without permission, or stolen. Obviously. It’s about understanding why it happened in the first place. Did the 17 yr old take her bra intending to return it? Did he steal it to masturbate to? Did he take it to sell on vinted?

He shouldn’t have been in her room without her knowledge. He shouldn’t have touched her things without her consent. He shouldn’t be made to feel so messed up that the only way he can try get his head around who he is is by taking something belonging to someone else as he’d feel too ashamed to buy the item himself or ask to borrow it directly. I’m not pretending to be a psychologist. He may very well present a risk, it sounds like that’s most likely to be to himself.

If the OP is at all concerned that her daughter is in danger then she must obv act and do whatever she deems necessary. I haven’t read up on this term that keeps being mentioned on here but I’d have assumed if a man wanted to get a sexual thrill from touching or wearing women’s underwear he wouldn’t be concerned with having a makeover as well, but I know nothing about the subject

What you’ve said makes perfect sense

If the OP is at all concerned that her daughter is in danger then she must obv act and do whatever she deems necessary

No one is suggesting he will assault her, but he’s using her and her underwear as a prop for his fantasy. I don’t think that’s ok.

It doesn’t matter how many different explanations there are for his behaviour. You take the worst possible reason and safeguard for that one, then work backwards from there. Thats exactly how safeguarding works. Are you aware of that?

The safeguarding is telling him explicitly that behaviour like stealing underwear will not be tolerated and cannot be excused and is a non-negotiable part of any support.

Again, it’s not difficult.

Co-op his stepsister into hiding his secrets from adults and roping her onto doing his makeup along with stealing her underwear.
If it was really just an identity issue why not just wear the bras he stole from shops and why didn't he watch makeup tutorials so he could do his own?
His behaviour is seriously inappropriate manipulative and yes predatory imho, it is part of a well known AGP fetish that always involves naive, vulnerable or unconsenting women and girls.
You can dismiss and minimise his behaviour all you want, i won't i seen and hear too much from AGP males and predators to do so, that boy is a walking red flag

Most not some.
Any man who enters a female single sex space without the express permission of every single woman or girl who uses or might use that space is a sexual predator, who is intentionally violating women's and girls boundaries which is another sign of AGP.
Look up gender euphoria and listen to the men who talk about the erection they get just from being in a female single sex space.
Oh and assuming the worst about serious red flag behaviour is called SAFEGUARDING not bigotry, may I suggest that you learn to safeguard women and girls rather than excuse inappropriate and predatory male pattern behaviour

Funny how the bras he stole are now being referred to as “underwear” by the all-males-must-be-predators brigade. Clearly trying to make it sound like something it isn’t to fit their narrative. He didn’t steal knickers, he stole bras. There’s a massive difference. If he stole her knickers that would be a different story entirely. Trying on bras is one of the first things boys (which he is, he’s not a man) who are confused about their gender do. It’s extremely common. The OP said he stole them to try on, not for any other reason. If he was a sexual predator stealing them for his own fucked up pleasure then he’s much more likely to be more secretive about it and to also steal knickers. Also let’s be realistic - if a 17 year old boy was starting to experience autogynephilic feelings, it’s far more likely he’d be confused and ashamed, hiding in his bedroom trying on bras and doing his own makeup. It’s much less likely that he’d have the confidence & life experience to openly prey on his step sister. It’s also far less likely he’d have the desire to prey on his own SISTER. She’s been part of his family since he was 7, pretty sure the Westermarck effect would’ve kicked in long ago!

There are multiple accounts from researchers into AGP like Ray Blanchard and Michael Bailey of boys stealing their mother’s or sister’s underwear - bra or knickers - whilst children for sexual reasons.

https://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/autogynephilia.htm

https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

There are also striking differences in developmental history. Many autogynephilic trans people report a period in their lives, usually during puberty, when they put on women’s undergarments (often “borrowed” from their mothers or sisters) and masturbated to orgasm.

Caitlyn Jenner admits he was stealing his daughter’s clothes and that’s how he got caught, on a webcam they’d set up.

It’s not necessarily that his step-sister is the direct target for the fantasy, but there is a possibility envy of her being a girl and her clothing are part of his fantasy.

Or not.

But it’s a possibility, and because it’s a possibility that is the most inappropriate, it’s the thing that needs to be safeguarded against before other possibilities are considered.

If he was a sexual predator stealing them for his own fucked up pleasure then he’s much more likely to be more secretive about it and to also steal knickers

He was secretive about it. We don’t know how truthful he is being about whether it’s “just bras”.

it’s far more likely he’d be confused and ashamed, hiding in his bedroom trying on bras and doing his own makeup.

He was, until the DD normalised it for him because she’s too young and naive to understand the transgression of boundaries that she hasn’t been protected from. What do you think he was doing with the bras he was stealing from his SS and shoplifting? Of course he was trying them on in secret.

It’s much less likely that he’d have the confidence & life experience to openly prey on his step sister. It’s also far less likely he’d have the desire to prey on his own SISTER

No one has said he’s sexually harassing her. Posters have stated that by stealing her underwear (to me, underwear is bras and knickers, what you wear under your clothes 🤷‍♀️) he’s violating her privacy and using her as a prop in a potentially emerging AGP fetish.

He may technically still be a boy but he’s post-pubertal, and male sexuality will be a driver of behaviour.

Every single definition I can find of “underwear” is bras and knickers I.e. clothing worn next to the skin 😀

Derailing the thread a bit here, but considering the OP never came back and this discussion has descended into yet another mumsnet “all men must be sexual predators” one 🥱 it’s made me wonder how some of the women on here manage to have husbands or male partners. I’m a lesbian and a feminist and strongly believe in women’s rights, but not to the extent that I assume every man or boy who may be questioning their identity is a sexual predator! Although I’m sooo glad I don’t have to sleep with men 😅 For those straight women who do believe that (clearly there’s many on this thread) how do you cope with any sexual activity with your partners?! How can you be attracted to them? I’m genuinely curious. Cos if all men have it in them to be predators, your hubbies could be too. Doesn’t that gross you out a bit?

It would gross me out if my husband had an AGP fetish. I couldn’t go near him if he became aroused wearing feminine underwear and make up.

I would leave in a heartbeat if he stole our daughters’ underwear.

Yes I am. Girls should not be involved with their brothers/ stepbrothers sexual issues full stop. If you don’t understand why this isn’t ok in families I don’t know what to say to you.

The fact she is his only ally is a major red flag and exactly what makes her so vulnerable.

Nobody has said they think all men are sexual predators.

Do you know what 'under'wear is? Undergarments. Clothes that you wear underneath your main clothes. Bras are under wear. Are you truly saying you didn't know bras are considered underwear?

noun

1. a woman's undergarment for supporting the breasts.

Stealing his step sisters underwear is not on.

You’ve strongly implied it by assuming the most reasonable explanation for his behaviour is that he’s a perv and a threat to his step sister, rather than a teenage boy struggling with his identity. I’m not saying AGP doesn’t exist and males are never a threat to their female siblings, but for that to be the first conclusion you jump to strongly suggests contempt for all men & boys and the assumption that any male questioning his identity must have a sexual fetish, making him far more likely to be a sexual predator. That’s just not the case. Yes, in some cases it is the case but not all. You have to consider the society a 17 yo has been brought up in. They’ve had messages from the media, schools, their peers, that if you don’t fancy being a man you can fairly easily switch and “become” a woman. Those messages are bound to cause curiosity and confusion in young people of both genders. Just the fact that it’s now possible and even socially acceptable in some circles, is going to cause curiosity about what it’s like to be the other sex. Doesn’t mean it’s sexual.

This.

Stealing underwear is generally a sign of sexual dysfunction, or a fetish which can become criminal (ie assault on non-consenting women).

Imagine if the OP's DSS were caught stealing a female neighbour's underwear?

Friend of mine is a part-time magistrate, and he told me it's eye-opening how there's a pattern of men committing "trivial" sexual crimes such as theft of women's underwear, or the Peeping Tom voyeurism, or public flashing, and ending up as perpetrators of serious sexual assault.

Again, it's worth listening to Helen Joyce on this. She's spoken to Genspect, for example, about the difficulty & embarrassment parents face with their sons who, as boys/young men, start displaying (or hiding) AGP tendencies. No teen wants to talk about their sexuality with his parents, and imagine the horror of realising that what arouses you is the thought of making love to yourself as a woman (that's the rough definition of autogynephilia).

It's a topic that needs to be talked about. It's a sexual fetish, and probably means that the sufferer is sexually dysfunctional & will have difficulties sustaining a "normal "(homosexual or heterosexual) sexual relationship & romantic/life partnership.

And I suggest that those PPs who find this statement challenging or disgusting read any of the 'Transwidow" threads over on FWR in MN, to read some of the stories of apparently "harmless" male cross-dressing. They're heart-breaking.

You really dont understand safeguarding do you?
Safeguarding requires you to look at the worst possible reasons and consequences and act to prevent harm.
This 17 year old young man has stolen intimate items of clothing ie underwear/bras from his stepsister and shops (plural). Whilst stealing from shops might fit the pattern of a confused vulnerable person stealing them from his stepsister does not, infact it screams fetish.
Then we have him grooming her to be his validation prop by involving her in his "experimentation" by doing his makeup and having her keep secrets from her mum and his dad.
This is not innocent or innocuous behaviour. At best it shows a young man with no understanding of how inappropriate his behaviour is and at worst the beginnings of a deeply harmful and dangerous fetish.
Whatever the cause of his behaviour the fact that it involves his stepsister is a massive problem and she needs to be protected from him until he can understand the gravity of his actions and why they are so inappropriate or he is successfully treated for his evolving fetish (not sure there is any proven treatment).
What we can't/shouldn't do is dismiss his behaviour as its just him exploring his sexuality (by involving his stepsister) or by claiming its normal or unproblematic or minimising it as just a bra.
We dont hate all men or think that they're all dangerous or predators, unfortunately however far too many are. We watch for red flag behaviour and respond appropriately by Safeguarding ourselves and our children. Which cant be done by ignoring or minimising red flag behaviour.
When it comes to TIMs or transwomen if you prefer we know that most late stage or adult transistors are AGPs, we also know that transwomen commit 5 times as many sexual offences as men without a trans identity and they tend to be more severe types.
Knowing these facts and how to appropriately react to the warning signs is not hatred of men or TIMs/transwomen its protecting women and girls
Here is a handy graph of ons and MOJ stats

I don’t think I’ve said anything about him being trans. But in any case It doesn’t matter whether he is gay, trans, or did it as a joke.

The only way your excuses about gender identity work is if you believe his motives affect the level of violation she feels. And safeguarding isn’t about a boys motives it’s about girls safety. Because if we do it your way we will be in a place where stealing girls underwear is a bad violating thing but if it’s related to a boys gender identity it’s ok and you shouldn’t be upset.

There’s several posters now who think safeguarding = hating men and that girls safety comes second to boys confusion.

I thought you were going ro say you've found out that your step son and daughter were taking drugs but it sounded like she is a lovely wholesome sister to him and making him feel confident. I think that you may have found the root of the problem. Maybe he is suppressing his identity. Please be his trusted adult.