Ice agent shoots a woman in the face part 3

[Moontan]

Donald Trump has now said its okay to murder a woman. Because they are doing it for people's 'safety'

It is interesting how far humans will let themselves be abused by bad people.

I was watching a documentary about jonestown the cult.

Some people left the cult

They said that the leader beat people, raped people, starved people. He made them do physical labour for many hours a day. He demanded that they give him all of their money.

And yet still hundreds of people followed him.

People seem to keep supporting a person and staying there. Rather than saying "maybe i was wrong and this guy is actually a bad person"

@Snowqueenie123- There is an investigation ongoing with evidence and accounts they have that Mumsnetters presumably do not have access to.

Who is paying these protesters?

where are the funds coming from?

there’s ICE protests everywhere, they must have an enormous budget,

Nor does Minnesota Law Enforcement by all accounts.

the investigation is hardly going to be unbiased if they won’t let LE see said evidence.

I want to know why she was so keen to drive off without her wife.

@Usernamenotfound1- That's because it's a federal department not a state department. Just like The FBI don't share information with local law enforcement when carrying out operations and investigations.

Rejoining.

I will say what I said on the last thread: I think her killing was unjustified, an overreaction and a disproportionate use of force.

I don’t think however this is a very very clear cut case.

We now know Renee and her wife were protesting ICE in some form and trying to engage with/taunt them. That doesn’t justify her killing at all, but there was lots of talk of her going on the school run or to the supermarket and doubt over what she was doing at the time. It still isn’t 100% clear exactly what happened in the build up, but very apparent she disliked ICE and was trying to engage them in some way. From what I can see, the interaction was enough for the officers to know she opposed them or had a grievance against them.

We know the officer in question was involved in an incident last year where an arrest wrong and the suspect drove off, dragging him 100ft behind the car and seriously injuring him. I would be surprised if this didn’t play any role at all in his thinking/overreaction.

In terms of the ‘collision’ it’s hard to say, because the camera pans away before the crucial moment. The sound does sound like her car made contact with him but we can’t say for sure. I don’t think she was trying to run him over but I think she seemed reckless as to whether she made contact with him or not.

For everyone saying ‘he should’ve got out the way’, well the onus is on the driver not to drive if there is a person stood in front of their vehicle. Had the shoe been on the other foot and he had bumped her with his car, you would no doubt be saying ‘why on earth did he drive, he could see her stood right there’ etc. Plus he’s an arresting officer, apprehending people isn’t an exercise in running off if they do anything to escape, it’s literally the opposite.

In short I my opinion at the moment is that she was quite reckless, and this triggered his overreaction as he had been injured by a vehicle before. I think the shooting was however unjustified and there were other ways to stop the vehicle without killing her, and I think this officer is unsuitable for duty.

I think it’s devastating her son has been left without his mum - just heartbreaking. Her wife’s tribute was just lovely, and I don’t think her actions in the car change this at all - as I said I don’t think she intended to drive at anybody at all.

It’s all very tragic.

I think it was all just a panicked and not-thought-out moment. I doubt there’s any clear cut logic or thought process to this like many seem to believe.

Maybe they care about the way their country doesn’t seem to be The Land of the Free any more? You know, the country they’re bringing their children up in?

Watched this video. The wife is getting into the car. The driver turns the wheel. The ICE agent shoots just as the car starts to move. There had been aggravation beforehand but nothing to suggest the driver planned to run anyone over. In fact, the protesters talk about coming back later and the driver says 'I'm not mad, bro'. It's clear the ICE agent was in a rage. He shoots her and says 'fucking bitch' as her car crashes.

So why aren’t they allowing local Le to investigate? It’s a criminal offence on their territory, why aren’t they be kept away? Or at the very least not included in a joint investigation.

federal FBI investigating federal ICE does not seem impartial.

The new footage is incontrovertible. I know people need to cling to their faux-lefty credentials at all costs but she wasn't panicking in the slightest - the opposite frankly - and her wife was yelling at her to drive at the officer. She shouldn't be dead, these protesters are allowed to act with impunity and with no consequences, encouraged into a righteous frenzy by people who should know better, so it ends up like this. What a mess.

No the onus is on the law enforcement official to get out the way:

From Title 1, U.S. DOJ Policy on Use of Force:
"Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury ... and no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle."
Also, placing oneself in the path of a moving vehicle constitutes officer-created jeopardy and undermines any claim that deadly force was necessary.

No 2

'Drive baby, drive!'

Why are people excusing this? They are the same people who excused Paul Doyle of ramming his car into the crowds in Liverpool.

It’s so dystopian.

What a tremendous tribute.

They both sound absolutely incredible.

Her poor kids.

Because the incident involved a Federal law enforcement officer not a local state police officer. State police were not involved in the operation. It doesn't matter where it happened a federal department has jurisdiction. The FBI won't be the ones carrying out the investigation that is the job of an independent party.

Really surprised at someone on the previous post comparing Renee to George Floyd. He was a criminal with a rap sheet as long as his arm. Renee was a Christian mother who was committing no crime.

She told her to drive because armed men were trying to open the car doors. Given ICE's reputation for violence, most people would panic at that.

It wasn't said in the way people are trying to make out. She wanted her wife to escape the situation before harm came to her.

Stop taking things out of context to suit your twisted narrative.

But if you’re a responsible parent, especially one where the father of the child is dead, then you make sure you don’t put yourself in a volatile situation which could end in you getting hurt or, in this case, killed. It’s just not worth the risk. So clearly wasn’t thinking of her child, or she wouldn’t have put herself in danger.

But the footage tells a different story…..

Exactly this - “drive, baby, drive” - to get away from the ICE agents.

Not “drive, baby, get him” or “drive over him, baby”

So, if it was the other way about an ICE officer had to quickly leave and accidentally clipped a bystander because they were stupid enough to put themselves the way of a moving vehicle at the last minute, it would be okay for the officer to be shot?

I mean, the bystander would clearly be in fear of their life so it would be fine, yes?

The scariest thing about this is all the people saying 'do as your told or you will die' and not 'people shouldn't be allowed to go about killing others because they're annoyed'.

The video shows her moving the Steering wheel AWAY not at him. She wasn’t trying to run him over. It was not self defense.

Still the endless banging on about how it was her FACE she was shot in as if that’s the only thing that’s relevant. Yes. We know what part of her body she was shot in. People don’t need to keep endlessly banging on about it. You can be shot anywhere and still die but you wouldn’t all be prattling on about how she was shot in her GROIN. It doesn’t matter what part of her body she was shot in so can we please just stop! She’s dead. Focus on THAT ffs!

I think a lot of that is being done on both sides.

To start with Renee was a damsel in distress on the school run, apprehended unwittingly by ICE.

Now we know she was trying to engage ICE and made her grievance against them clear.

None of the above means she deserved to die in any way, shape or form.

We’re all clamouring to give out interpretation of what was said. Only the people who actually said those things know what they meant.