Ice agent shoots a woman in the face part 3

[Moontan]

Donald Trump has now said its okay to murder a woman. Because they are doing it for people's 'safety'

It is interesting how far humans will let themselves be abused by bad people.

I was watching a documentary about jonestown the cult.

Some people left the cult

They said that the leader beat people, raped people, starved people. He made them do physical labour for many hours a day. He demanded that they give him all of their money.

And yet still hundreds of people followed him.

People seem to keep supporting a person and staying there. Rather than saying "maybe i was wrong and this guy is actually a bad person"

Try reading my actual comment.

I clearly say he didn't follow protocol, he murdered her and should be held accountable. The buck stops with him, as he should've deescalated the situation – that's his job. Shooting her was abhorrent and unnecessary.

But as a mother, I do think it's irresponsible to voluntarily put yourself in a confrontational situation with an armed thug when you could avoid it, and I cannot understand choosing to do so.

Voter turnout out is only relevant in free and fair elections.
There is plenty of evidence that Trump won his first term due to Russian interference in that election. They likely did the same this time around. There is a strong likelihood that Trump will decide to stay on indefinitely - probably by engineering a situation where the US is at war. Either due to civil unrest within America or due to one of the many threats he has made against so many countries. Reality is there probably won’t be anyway out of this via the ballot box.

But you are blaming her, you're saying she was irresponsible to even be there. Even though you're legally allowed to protest. Unless these things are highlighted (as the coverage of this is highlighting it to the world), nothing will ever stand a chance of changing.

You say being a responsible parent is staying home and not challenging things. Other parents think their responsibility lies with trying to ensure their children grow up in a fair country with human rights. Neither are wrong.

The only ones who are wrong are the murderers and government who give them carte blanche to do so.

America should be pulling together to stop these random acts of violence. Instead the POTUS is threatening to take over other countries because his ego is that big he thinks he won't be stopped. Because his own country are scared to even protest in case they are killed - with his blessing.

That may not be “how it works”.

but that is what he’s doing. He is sending ICE into democratic states.

there are a lot of things Trump and his administration “can’t” do. But he’s doing it.

You're right – it's a frightening possibility that he may do that.

Unfortunately, I don't think protests will achieve anything in that case either. When the government is willing to just shoot anyone who interferes with their actions, and doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks, what can the average citizen do but either shut up, or die?

Look at China, Russia, Afghanistan – even in Iran, I have to think the protests won't make a difference unless the protestors get the military on side and manage to topple the regime.

I think a lot of people are viewing this through an idealistic lens, and aren't wrong about the 'shoulds', but I'm looking at it pragmatically. And I have to think most of the people praising Renee on this thread wouldn't get mouthy with armed ICE agents while obstructing the road – they'd comply, and be alive.

(Again: she should not have been murdered, no matter how she behaved. The ICE agent is ultimately responsible. But she's still dead.)

“As a mother” though, someone has to stand up for the world our children live in.

if we don’t do it, who will?

I remember Vance was it? Said about Kamala that she should not be president because she had no children, therefore she would have no interest in the long term future of the country.

someone needs to stand up to these thugs. Someone needs to stand up and say what they are doing is wrong.

are we saying only those willing to die should be protesting?

protesting shouldn’t mean execution.

i hope Renee’s kids grow up proud of her for having the courage to try and change her country. I hope her death does change the country.

Well, all I know is that now she's dead. Even if her murderer goes to prison for life, she'll still be dead. She might have been right, but....she's dead. Her kids will spend the rest of their lives without her, and ICE are still operating. What a fucking tragedy.

I think the first rule of being a responsible parent is staying alive in order to parent your children. I think it's possible to try to effect change without getting into a confrontation with armed thugs. By encouraging awareness, voter turnout, swaying people's opinions, writing to officials, and so on. Anything except pissing off a man with a gun.

Idealism is all well and good, but unless it's tempered by pragmatism, it doesn't achieve anything.

Protests can and do work. Sadly with people like Trump money and violence are the only language they seem to understand.
Protest is necessary to keep the focus on what the administration is doing. The tide is slowly shifting in the US. People are not happy. MAGA is very divided. The economy is not doing well and the cost of living is high and people are beginning to feel it. Add the Epstine files, POTUS threatening Greenland and now this. Trumps ratings are falling daily.

I don't know if I would stop. I do know I would not be able to process calm and rational thought while armed thugs were surrounding me. From the safety of my bedroom, though, I don't know if I would trust them not to kill me if I did stop.

Once they'd made the choice to kill her, and it is clear they made that choice before she moved her car, she was dead no matter what she did.

In the us though you can’t live like that.

cut someone up at traffic lights? Piss off a man with a gun.

Bump into someone in the street? Piss off a man with a gun.

take too long in a queue? Piss off a man with a gun.

call someone out for hitting a child or a dog in public? You could piss off a man with a gun.

any action you take could easily piss off a man with a gun.

There are ways to do that without confronting armed thugs. Boring, thankless things like encouraging voter turn out, observing any protests from a safe distance and blogging about them, petitions, voting at every level of government for people who represent your values, and gradually effecting change by ensuring through voting that the people in power align with your values.

Because as far as I'm aware, protests in the US in recent decades have changed nothing.

And obviously protesting shouldn't mean execution...but 'should' holds no water when you're facing down an armed thug who has the government supporting him. It won't keep you alive. And sadly and cynically, I don't think her death will change the country for the better.

There's a big difference between accidentally and unknowingly pissing off a citizen who may or may not have a gun, and deliberately choosing to piss off an armed government agent (from an agency known for its agression).

What protests in the US in recent decades have actually effected noticeable change?

Absolutely. I can imagine in that situation I'd be likely to panic too – which is why law enforcement are supposed to de-escalate, not be trigger-happy arseholes.

I don't agree they made the choice to kill her before she moved her car, though. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know what anyone was thinking. But I do know that the only person I can control is myself, and I wouldn't have put myself in that situation. Wherever men with guns are, I'm avoiding if humanly possible, because you can't trust them not to shoot you, whoever they are, and I like being alive.

I do hope that this causes change, and is the beginning of ICE being dismantled, but if anything I suspect it might have the opposite result, and they'll double down. The US is a horrendous mess with Trump in charge.

I got deleted yesterday for pointing out that a lot of the rationalising is of the 'she was asking for it' variety. I think someone also took me literally.

I think the first rule of being a responsible parent is staying alive in order to parent

This is the point I was trying to make though. I doubt she thought in a million years she would be killed for protesting. US always go on about freedom of speech, land of the free. So she has tried to do something she thought might help show support for human rights, so that it is the type of world her children live in.

I would agree with you only if she walked in front of armed soldiers in a war torn country with zero human rights knowing it was likely she would get shot.

But if that happened, everyone (including her) would be trying to flee that country to save themselves. Just like immigrants are doing and getting vilified for it.

You'd think at the very least American citizens should be allowed to exercise their constitutional rights and they're not - unless their thoughts are in line with the governments. Terrifying.

@OtterlyAstounding If you watch a slowed version of one of the videos, I think it is the one from the side that shows it most clearly, the shooter steps back and draws his gun before her car moves forward. In the military, in any military, not just the US, you are trained to never raise your weapon unless you intend to use it. So at this point, he has decided that shooting her is not only a possibility but a likely outcome.

Probably more than you think.

bringing these issues out into the public and demonstrating changes minds. Change enough and the next election you’ll get a different result.

if no one goes out and protests ICE then they’ll carry on quietly disappearing people.

protests shine a light. The change may not be obvious or immediate, but doing nothing won’t change anything.

So you're basically arguing against the actions of the people who hid jews and others from the Nazis? The people who helped slaves escape the south? It would have been better if they'd written some strongly worded letters?

I wasn't really surprised. It is a horrible thing to read, and tbh, I would probably react before processing if I read something like that. I just assumed posters had missed my username and thought I was a MAGA/Reform loon.

I agree with this, for the most part. I do think that with what we know about ICE, she had to know it was at the very least a volatile, dangerous situation, and as a mother it's not a situation that I would risk. But I suppose she possibly didn't consider that she might be shot. It really is disturbing that America has come to this.

I actually think it would be a good use of your time to go through mumsnet and go on every thread and complain about something they're not discussing.

Same. It's just such a clear cut comparison, it's hard to not want to point it out

The world today not the same as the world it was back then. We live in an entirely different landscape. The rules have changed – back then they didn't have the same level of personal tracking, government intelligence, surveillance, etc. The risks were different.

Also, people helping slaves escape the south, or hiding Jewish people weren't confronting armed men with guns, they were trying to work in secret, under the radar.

Well the obvious one would be Black Lives Matter! Police accountability, use of body cameras and the banning of arrest tactics like chokeholds all happened in multiple states as a direct result of what happened.