Ice agent shoots a woman in the face part 3

[Moontan]

Donald Trump has now said its okay to murder a woman. Because they are doing it for people's 'safety'

It is interesting how far humans will let themselves be abused by bad people.

I was watching a documentary about jonestown the cult.

Some people left the cult

They said that the leader beat people, raped people, starved people. He made them do physical labour for many hours a day. He demanded that they give him all of their money.

And yet still hundreds of people followed him.

People seem to keep supporting a person and staying there. Rather than saying "maybe i was wrong and this guy is actually a bad person"

Booted, masked, armed thugs travelling en masse with seeming impunity from the law and a complete mandate to carry out any violent act including murder. And the majority of Republicans apparently supporting and applauding this.

What has America become.

It's not victim blaming. I've said he murdered her, and he needs to be held accountable. But if I learnt that my mother had willingly driven into a confrontation with law enforcement thugs, knowing how trigger-happy and violent they were, and that was why I spent the rest of my life without her there, I'd be angry with her.

People are talking a lot about 'shoulds', but she's still dead. Changing the people in power through voting etc is the only real way to effect change in today's world, not confronting an armed man on the street.

But it won’t stop. The people protesting and standing up to the government will not stop the process. It might distract or interfere to a point, but the intended process will happen. Protests will make the government aware they don’t agree, but unless millions are going to turn up, it will not stop the government going ahead.

@Soontobesingles to be fair it wasn't written very well in one of the sources I read, so I can understand how things can be misunderstood - which is another long discussion about how media can mislead & spin the narrative.

I mean, let's be real – when in recent decades, have protests managed to effect any real change in America? Maybe there are some I'm not aware of that did, but I'm pretty sure they do nothing. People in power don't care about the masses protesting. They're cushioned from the effects of it, and eventually the marchers have to go back to work to pay the rent, etc. Protesting en masse isn't effective anymore.

Increasing voter turn out, and using elections to put people into positions of power whose policies align with one's values, are the only ways to effect change.

So people should just stand by and watch their neighbours be kidnapped? She their children’s friends be ripped from their families? You stand back and watch anyone who doesn’t have white skin be removed from society one by one?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

If you think there is going to be a democratic election in four years, you're more optimistic than I am. No way is this administration going to cede power.

There isn't going to be an election in four years, because dictators do not give up their power to democratic processes. This is just the start.

But the Trump government are not stating she was shot for protesting. They’re alleging she was shot in self defence because she tried to run over the ICE agents with her vehicle. So there is no rule that states a protestor can be shot. I happen to think that the agent wasn’t in any real danger, and could have jumped out of way of the car, so I don’t agree with the self defence reasoning, but the government think that’s what happened here.

If people thought this way throughout history, we would still have slavery, and women wouldn't be allowed to vote, among other things.

Is protesting dangerous? In dictatorships and America, yes, it is. Does that mean people shouldn't take the risk? No, doing nothing is irresponsible and socially and morally reprehensible.

Renee did nothing wrong. Not a single part of her actions or behaviour contributed to her murder. She was standing up against a government act she believed to be morally repugnant, probably illegal, and definitely inhumane. She should be applauded.

Whether or not you agree with her beliefs, the fact that she actively stood up to defend them should never be a justification for murder. It should never be seen as wrong or irresponsible.

But protesting doesn't stop the deportations. In this case, it only got a mother murdered by some trigger-happy arsehole. The immigrants will still be deported. The government is protecting the shooter. Laws will not be changed because she protested and was shot, because the government doesn't care.

There is no point in 'speaking out', in a manner that puts you in danger, to a person or organisation that doesn't care how you feel or what you think. You may as well tell a rabid dog to stop biting people. It's not sensible or effective to die for no reason. There are smarter ways to do things.

To tell her to get away from the officer grabbing at her door in a violent way while yelling at her.

Similarly, his suggestion that certain US cities be uses as a "training ground" for the national guard.

This shooting is precisely the type of incident that the US government is attempting to provoke.

Not least because state violence is likely to cause unrest, which will give Republicans some sort of "plausible" narrative to cancel or restrict elections.

Well, I suppose we'll see. I'm cautiously optimistic. But if Trump does 'cancel the elections' then either the US will get used to living under a dictatorship, or an eventual bloody uprising will take place. Whether it will be successful or not, who knows, but I imagine it won't be fun for Americans. If only they'd never voted him in.

Of course if they want to protest, then that’s their right. But don’t be deluded into thinking any action will be taken on the back of it. America don’t do u-turns. And the situation we’re discussing wasn’t even a protest. It was just antagonists trying to disrupt the process. Blowing whistles and shouting stuff out of car windows might delay things, but otherwise it will be business as usual for the Government and ICE. The facts are that they are illegal immigrants, and people voted Trump in on the back of his manifesto - part of that being to sort out the illegal immigration situation in America. He’s just following through with what he promised voters.

And what might those smarter methods be? If your so full of bright ideas let’s hear them?

No protesting doesn’t stop every deportation. But if by protesting and holding ice up longer enough for people to get somewhere safe. Even for a day matters. You may well save a life.

No one person can fix it. But if everyone chooses to do what they can do society stands a chance. Or we all go to hell.

they didn’t leak it to make the shooter look innocent, but to make the victim look guilty. not guilty of a crime. guilty of having a visibly queer wife. guilty of liberalism. guilty of opposing the regime. they don’t seek to exonerate themselves, only to demonstrate who deserves to die.

Thank you. That articulates it really well.

I've seen this technique deployed so often, but never seen it put into words so clearly.

I’m not justifying her murder. Protest should be peaceful. You can get your point across without violence and aggression. Yet protests are becoming increasingly volatile, and that’s not what they should be. In fact the fact that many are aggressive and confrontational probably put off a large majority from attending the protests, which will impact the message which is being put across. Once protests get violent, the argument is lost.

@Ihavelostthegame
'If your so full of bright ideas let’s hear them?'
I never said I was full of bright ideas. I said that protesting doesn't effect meaningful change in today's world.

'You may well save a life.'
Or lose your own. And they're not executing immigrants from what I know – they're deporting them. Besides my responsibility is to my children, not a stranger. Sadly, Renee Good achieved nothing, and now her children have no mother, and locking her murderer away in prison won't bring her back to them.

'But if everyone chooses to do what they can do society stands a chance. Or we all go to hell.'
I'll sign petitions, I'll try to sway people I know to vote, and I'll vote myself, but I'm not going to get mouthy with an armed thug. Protests in recent decades haven't achieved a damn thing, because people in power don't care.

Just to be clear Minneapolis is in a democratic state. They did not vote for Trump!
Funny how the only states thus far to have been hit hard by ice are democratic states isn’t it!

They might not be Republican, but the same rules have to run for all states in America. Trump can’t just pin point certain states for deportation of illegal immigrants. Thats not how it works.

You said there are smarter ways of doing things! So what are these smarter ways that work?

Protesting doesn’t affect meaningful change? So what’s happening in Iran isn’t meaningful? Protests here have effectively made the government do U turns on policy.
And very sadly hasn’t Renee’s death prompted more people to get angry and protest?

Im not saying it will be easy. I strongly suspect Renee won’t be the only person to loose their life in the US over this. But standing aside and letting the thugs win is not a solution either.

But that is literally what he is doing? The only states where mass deportations are happening at scale are democratic states.

I cannot understand why someone living in the US, with three children she's responsible for, would freely choose to engage with trigger-happy, badly trained, armed law enforcement officers

So it's her fault, not the fault of the trigger-happy, badly trained officers? Everyone should put up and shut up and let them run riot shooting innocent people?

I would imagine things like increasing voter turn out at elections on every level would be a smarter way of effecting change. But just because I think there have to be smarter things than confronting an armed ICE agent on the street, doesn't mean I have the answers.

What protests in the US have effected change in recent decades? Roe V Wade was still overturned, and law enforcement still treat black Americans with bias. Within a few weeks I think the 24hr news cycle will have swept away Renee Good's murder, and it'll be onto the next crisis or scandal, with nothing having changed.

Renee Good didn't stand aside, and the thugs still won. I just think there has to be a safer way of doing things – it probably involves a long, hard, boring slog to change the people in power, and isn't as thrilling as going to a protest, but I have to imagine is probably more likely to have an impact.