To be frustrated that DD is struggling to find a job in her desired field while her friends on skilled worker visas aren’t

[Andiessock]

My DD is in her mid 20s, she graduated with a masters in philosophy over 2 years ago now from a top university in London, she has a BA from a top university as well. Her two closest friends during her masters weren’t British.
DD struggled to find a job directly related to philosophy or even culture in general, she did manage to get a job in the civil service but she doesn’t enjoy it at all.
Her two friends both managed to get jobs in the field they desired originally on graduate visas, now both are sponsored on skilled worker visas.
One works at cultural institute associated with her home country in programme coordination so planning and running events that promote her countries culture etc. specifically in literature and philosophy.
The other works at a non-profit cultural institution in a similar role to her other friend but a little more research heavy less events centred.

First of all I’m not entirely sure how either of these roles fall under “skilled workers”, they must be making around 40k to even qualify and whilst I understand the first friend being preferred over a British national since it’s a cultural institution, I don’t understand why non-Brits are being given roles in an industry Brits are struggling to get a foot in the door at.

Im all for migrants for what it’s worth, this is not intended to be slanderous to migrants, especially in industries which need the talent from abroad; but I don’t see how that applies here and in this case it does feel like “foreigners are stealing British jobs” (not a sentiment I typically agree with or would use any other time). That’s not to mention that I’m not even sure how these roles qualify as skilled workers in the first place.

AIBU to find this incredibly frustrating?

I do think the doctors situation is probably an entirely different scenario and has clearly been an issue waiting in the wings for a long while, they aren’t just trained overnight - if on average there are only xyz number of training places available but zxy number of trained up junior doctors then something is clearly wrong with the numbers at that non consultant level - it may be that at a recruitment level there are issues with enough experienced consultants/surgeons etc and that’s again a different issue that may require overseas recruitment . I’m sure someone on here who is a doctor of many years knows the ins and out of this and can explain how it’s come about and the timeline - it’s a really specific job and not the same thing as coming in for a professional but non medical role .

@AnnaFrithIt really isn’t. People have been moving to other countries for work since forever. The USA is a country entirely made up of people who emigrated there at some point. It’s really concerning that you’re a doctor (if true), if this is the level of intellect then no wonder people from other counties are beating you to a job.

Up to a point, Lord Copper. The RLMT was in place until 2021 - but that was at the same time as there was freedom of movement of workers between the UK and other European countries, and that freedom of movement remains in all countries which make up the European Union.

Also you realise Uk doctors migrate in large numbers to places like Australia and the USA, therefore “stealing the jobs” of the people born there?

Other countries can be and are racist too by the way: making hiring decisions based simply on nationality or place of birth is racist.

If by racist you mean "unethically discriminatory" on the basis of nationality, then that's a matter of ethics and I'm not sure you'd have consensus that it's unethical. If you mean "unlawfully discriminatory" then it isn't; most immigration decisions are excluded from the Equality Act. Not all discrimination is impermissible: it is ageist to exclude adults from joining the Cubs for example but it's not illegal or unethical.

Sounds like a case of sour grapes with a Farage(ist) undetone.

It's really difficult, and not that useful, to comment on your specific situation without knowing it. There are a few areas, liek academia, where traditionally there is a lot of movement internationally, and that is really important for the sector. There are also a few jobs which require such unusual or specific qualifications that almost no one anywhere has them.

But your focus is really very narrow. Why do you think you can't find good candidates in the UK - among millions of people. What kinds of policies, say in things like education or training, might account for that? Neither the state nor industry is likely to push for better when they can get well educated candidates from elsewhere for free.

I think we all know that there are plenty of humanities graduates who were good students that are available to fill low level positions in places like museums.

What is really crazy is how many people on this thread think they are nice progressive leftists - and are accusing others of being, maybe, "a tiny bit racist" - but are arguing for the most neoliberal free trade kind of economy you can imagine. It's a crazy world when supposed leftists don't understand protecting workers.

It's not about race it is about citizenship and the responsibility nations have to their own citizens.

Almost every country puts limits on non-citizens working, including most that I suspect you think are very nice progressive countries.

Allowing foreign candidates to compete where there are no shortages is actually extremely unusual internationally.

The only people who advocated that approach until recently were banks and hard right libertarians.

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone in the thread declare themselves a “leftist”, or discuss their personal politics at all. That’s an assumption you’ve made.

Apart from anything, what British person says leftist? It’s an American expression. We say leftie or left-wing.

You really don't understand this.

The way doctors are trained means at a certain point they go into speciality training. That is how they learn specialities, they aren't somehow born with that knowledge. When they have finished the previous part of their training, they apply to the speciality training they would like. The best get into the most popular ones, others may have to take the less popular (but still important) ones.

But these training posts can be applied to by anyone. Now, there is not much reason UK doctors who have already done the training will apply, unless they are looking to change speciality which is unusual.

But doctors from other countries can also apply, and what is happening is that doctors who have already been trained and practicing for many years are applying and competing against student doctors in the UK. And getting the posts because of their extra years of experience.

Meanwhile the British government has just spent hundreds of thousands of pounds training up doctors who now won't be trained.

Doctors can't move to either of those places unless they jobs cannot be filled by local people.

You can say left-wing if you like.

The argument being used by many here that it's racist to discriminate on the basis of nationality is, in these modern times, almost exclusively made by the left, at least in the UK.

This is a significant change as it used to be a right wing, or in some cases liberal (in the pro-capitalism sense) argument.

This is the most significant reason why more well off people today tend to support the left while the working classes have moved to supporting the right.

Specific thesis related to the role she was hired for?

Previous excellent work experience in a related area?

What sort of work experience/ internship experience does your DD have under her belt?

Has your DD considered the Foreign Office? Cultural attaché is a jolly nice gig.

You are very tentative and polite with your question but essentially you believe your daughter is more entitled to a job than foreigners, regardless of whether they are the better candidate. Why not compare her situation to her British friends’? Put it however delicately you like but your true beliefs come through - and I doubt they’re much different from Reform supporters, just expressed differently. Your daughter has clearly had opportunities and is bright. Whatever she makes of her life is up to her.

Seriously if she’s got into civil service you can’t complain. The endless job opportunities internally are second to non. Pay decent. Loads security

Sounds more like they interviewed much better so maybe she needs to work on that

How many languages does you daughter speak fluently? and how much time has she spend outside the uk? Booth are fairly essential in this line if work - she needs to look at jobs outside the uk really!

@Andiessock hasn’t confirmed that her DD actually applied for either job. Her DD sounds lacking in initiative and the OP is xenophobic.

If the thread is a Reform plant/troll, it’s backfired.

@Andiessock ‘s DD is going to have to be much more entrepreneurial and self-starting if she wants an interesting job in the cultural sector. It’s competitive and there are some brilliant young people out there.

Firstly, you do not know what my thoughts are on any other country.

Secondly, my point still stands - the issue at hand is not about international recruitment but about domestic education policy. Why should I be treated by a less competent or skilled British doctor if they have a better counterpart? I am not that nationalistic I’m afraid.

I actually really do understand this. The poster I was responding to made comments focusing on how their patients supposedly only want British-born doctors as they can’t understand “foreign” doctors, and when pulled up on it they did the usual bait and switch often performed by racists and started spouting guff about training and recruitment etc. And this particular example is a great one as again, it is about domestic education policy, and yet posters like the one I was quoting attempt to blame “foreigners” for the government’s failings.

And again: if the focus is on getting the best person for the job then there is nothing wrong with this practice. I would rather be treated by the best-skilled GP in the same way I would want a bridge to be built by the best-skilled engineer. I actually do not care where they were born. We cannot take advantage of a global marketplace for everything else and then shut the doors when it suits us.

Foreigners cannot have knowledge outside of their own countries don’t you know? It’s just racist tripe wrapped up in faux concern. The OP is essentially saying her daughter has more of a right to a job than someone who was not born here regardless of knowledge, skill and intellect.

Maybe if the OP’s daughter spent less time focusing on others and more time building up some skills she would be able to compete in the job market?

Rage Bait

The point is, UK trained doctors cannot even become GPs due to restrictive training opportunities, for reasons already pointed out. Doctors don't just become GPs or surgeons or paediatricians when they graduate from med school, there are years of training ahead of them for their chosen specialties.

People have always moved around for work. It does not logically follow from that that it's not completely normal for countries to restrict access to their labour markets to protect jobs for their own citizens.

If you can't grasp that, you are in no position to pass comment on anyone else's intellect.

The point is, that is irrelevant to the actual argument at hand. If education and training opportunities for UK-trained doctors (or any career path for that matter) is not fit for purpose that is not the fault of “foreigners”. And those who are recruited internationally should not be made to feel like they do not “deserve” to have good jobs and good lives because of it.