To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

I would also say that the school system tells us that you have this one chance in life to succeed, through exams, and if you don't do that you are a failure. The biggest thing you can do here is keep calm and show her that this is not the case. There are multiple chances, especially with your support and advantages, for her to do interesting work, find something that floats her boat, and even to 'go wrong' and drift off and come back in again to either education, or work, or finding some other way of living that is not destructive to her or others. The school system can make those who don't come out with good grades feel terrible, so part of your job is to show her these other possibilities, and not to get too anxious yourself if she is trying out identities and ideas and behaviours, but to, as someone else has said, keep the channels of communication and the door always open so she can walk back through it if she makes mistakes (which we all do!)

Op you have lots of incredible posts here ! This is MN at it finest however in addition to the other strategies offered i think you need help with her school profile.

I've wirren a few posts about it now but you need to look into it and andress it with help .

I think youre niave. She doesnt drink, smoke, take drugs and has never had sex.. she happily lives on £10 a week pocket money.. but shes managed to befriend this person who circs vary wildly from hers and be comfortable being lazy, ignorant about her parents hard work and disrespectful about the exam?

You know she isnt studying, so why doesnt she have a job? Im not even clear how shes in colleage with zero GCSEs.

Bad behavoiur isnt just aggression

Youre making excuses for what is antagonistic behaviour. Quiet, stubborn definace. She does what she wants without consequences, and you let her. And while I think at 18 she will be able to follow her daft plan she will quickly come crying back to you. But by then shes 18 still without qualifications expecting you to return the status quo.

So dont let it get to that, have consequences and accountability. At her age I worked part time and paid my parents board. Not much but my mum said, i have two jobs to keep you safe and teach you independence. I dont need the money, im not trying to make a profit out of you but you need to learn to pay your way somewhere and in exchange for contributing you get a say in X things (i could add stuff to the shopping list for me etc). You need to teach her accountability before shes in a hole she cant get out of

Youve made it so easy for her to be lazy

OP, you havent answered about her birth family. I get the impression you are very well to do, live in a nice house in a nice place and have a high quality of life.

Does she reject this, does she feel this isnt really 'her', does she identify with the idea of her birth family, (or the fantasy of them), is she attracted to the idea of living rough/in poverty/bumming around because she is feeling alienated about your own life?

You made a comment about supermarket work, not wanting her to stifle ambition if she did that as a part time job as an example, this tells me that you may be vocal about what you see as living a lower income life or non qualifed life

Lots of people work, have good lives but havent got qualifications, not academic, are valued and valuable members of society but work in supermarkets, we need to show that we can embrace people that do important jobs like that. I wonder what she is hearing about that concept?

Haven’t RTFT but it sounds like in having such a privileged life she doesn’t really understand the concept of money. Or specifically having no money. I wonder how her and this friend plan to spend their days while they are on benefits. I’m pretty sure being shacked up in a council flat, watching daytime tv and being skint would lose its novelty pretty quickly. It isn’t just about money it’s about having aspirations and actually doing something worthwhile with your life. I can’t understand how she thinks a life of scrounging and doing nothing would be fulfilling.

Her attitude stinks OP but you know this. I would hope that she’s just a silly teenager talking crap and will change her views, although judging by what you’ve said regarding her stubbornness and lack of qualifications who knows. It must be very frustrating for you.

Does she visually look very different from her parents? Are her siblings adopted?

I wonder if she is becoming terrified of failing as an adult and is looking for you to reassure that you love her and will be her guides and safety net, and / or maybe she has a deep lack of self esteem and can not try in education for fear of being seen to be unable to get the grades - maybe she truly feels safer not trying and has decided a persona that is what she feels is achievable or is in fact a cry for help? By opting out of educational goals she retains some control in a world where she feels she will have none.

Being adopted raises the possibility of prior trauma and gaps in development and sadly love is not going to fix these things alone she will likely need your support and scaffolding to build her life and find her place.

I wonder if you can work with the college to grow her into a first role that will help build her self esteem perhaps volunteering walking dogs in a shelter or something, helping in a tea room at the weekends also a hobby such as learning to play guitar or sing in a choir, maybe join a church. All these types of things could help offer her a ‘village’ ….friends of different ages, responsibilities and life experiences.

I think this too. Get her counselling and also look for professional support for yourself- for example, I’d offer to buy her a car or something that would really motivate her if she gets a passing gcse, 4 or 5 passes or whatever that is. I am usually much more of the approach that you have to do for all siblings what you do for one, but adoption does create complex long lasting trauma (not from being loved by you, from the early loss and transition)

I agree with a previous poster that you urgently need to get her some suitable 'counselling' to support her with the trauma of her adoption/preadoption. Forget schooling and jobs for the moment and get her the support she needs.....
I have adopted relatives and they have had their struggles due to their early life. One was out of school for a while but turned their life around, the other has several children and SS involved.......

Op "never wants for anything". You created Frankenstein's monster...now unpick it. She has an Idea and God knows I employed 40 or 50 of them in the 90s who have the idea that they will coast through life, other people will pick up the tab. They will get some sort of education but it doesn't matter mummy and daddy will send me money and then they will die and I will be set for life. This is why Labour introduced inheritance tax.

So let her get on with it...but hay. We ain't leaving nothing in our wills because you haven't worked for anything and if you are happy for the state to pay, so crack on..
Battersea dogs home will be happy

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth Is it a bit 'we need to talk about Kevin'?

Your last paragraph sums up my fear. While having these crazy plans she also talks about her expectations for life (what kind of house she wants, where she wants to go on holiday) and when we say that requires a good job, which means either qualifications, hard work or both, she just says that's not fair. She has no comprehension of what real life is and I am taking note of suggestions from this thread as to how we can help her.

I am reading every post even if I am not commenting on them all. Thank you everyone for your time.

Could you afford to pay a private tutor at home ? Just to help her get a few exams? Îm not sure how you would motivate her though? If you drove her to London and showed her where her friend was living would that be a good or bad idea? I love london but it’s not always what you imagine if you haven’t got money

@99bottlesofkombucha good idea re positive kind motivation however she can't be motivated to do well if she literally can't .it's not clear whether she can or can't but students who are not adopted may suffer from massive self esteem issues due to our education system failing them .
So without the late addition issue students stuffing with Sen etc can have massive issues which Ia why op must investigate and hopefully spend money on proper tutors who will work with her and key into what's going wrong and help her. .if op does this and her DD understands and starts to learn ,her ambitions and self esteem will all follow.

This

Once age is stronger The Prince’s Trust helps young people

How does your DD understand her adoption and the reasons she was removed from her birth family? She’s at an age where she may have a growing understanding of what happened to her, she may feel a life on benefits is all she’s worth, or that she’s too far removed from her birth family. It’s not unusual for adopted people to self sabotage to try and reset the balance. How do you talk about her birth family, is it something that the family are open to talking about?

Adoption in teen years creates a fundamental difference in young people at a time when they just want to be the same as everyone else. Shame might make her feel set apart from the privileged life she has, making her pull away.

There are so many reasons why she’s behaving this way, but I’d bet my house her adoption is right in the middle of it, even if she can’t articulate that.

I've only read your post rather than the many replies which I'm sure have covered everything you need to know. I couldn't help but wonder if this an example where nature has triumphed over nurture.

A child adopted at age 3 will have traumas in her past possibly both pre and post natal. She will have struggled with attachment in the vital early years which makes this teenage transition from child to adult much harder. It is not unusual for a child adopted at that sort of age to have particular problems at this stage of life.
She has had material benefits and loving parents from age 3, but has a gap in her development from 0 to 3.
It is very hard to make up this deficit, however hard you try. All you can do is to be clear that you are there for her, but that you have to stick by your own sense of right and wrong.
To be honest I do get exasperated that placing a child for adoption ticks a box for agencies .. job done .. and the adoptive patents often find themselves trying to be unqualified therapists. The placing agencies know full well the sort of challenges that could lie ahead, but support and guidance is in general sadly lacking.
I am sorry you are facing this.

You would be amazed at how many students can get to 16 and they don't know how to learn ,many can't revise they don't understand how to take in information becsuee someone tells them to wirhroiht sitting down and literally showing them how .

Yes as PPs have said I think therapy around her adoption is maybe needed if that’s not already been done. Does she talk aboutit at home ? Ask questions ?

I agree. Why was she adopted? I have no medical qualifications so am wary of spreading a misconception, but it's still a fact that I know of three adoptees born to addicts, who are ND.

It honestly sounds like something is going on. Even a 'lazy' child will balk at the idea of getting no qualifications because the tests were 'too hard'. Although I agree that 0-3 is literally a formative period, you have still provided a lot of her 'nurture' and if you are that successful, and from what you've said in your OP, it seems very odd that she's grown up with a mindset so far removed from you and your DH's.

16 yo girls plan all sorts of bollocks and don’t usually follow through with it. I had friends who were layabouts with no qualifications at 16 and once the reality of that life set in they mostly made positive changes.

But if your DD does move to London and try living the life she describes she will soon find herself bored, hungry and miserable.

I think that the adoption thing is relevant and this also may all be trauma related, so possibly path getting her some help from that pov.

Adoptive parent here. Name changed.

Short message as I’m in bed - but a lot of similarities between your DD and my 19 year old DS. Almost 3 years of fortnightly-ish visits to a clinical psychologist who has a specialism in developmental trauma made no difference at all. He doesn’t want help/doesn’t see any issue in his life choices - yet.

It’s incredibly frustrating - and for those who are curious - DS’s adverse early life experiences (and the resultant impact on his neural development) - the same experiences that led to him being adopted - are absolutely a root cause of this behaviour. So although it’s not being adopted per se that causes it, there is a link.

OP - I also suggest you post this on the adoption board.

DS’s behaviour had started to have an impact on my work and mental health and it’s only in the last few months I’ve realised there really isn’t anything more I can do other than let it play out. - and have started to accept this may, unfortunately, be his path. And yes..l see debt, substance abuse and homelessness in his future. It’s tragic.

While I would not say she would want to be doing it every day, she did used to be very sporty, loved hockey and was on county track at girl's cricket (and was often picked to play for the boys team at her school), but her interest in that started falling away in Year 10 when it became clear that the really sporty girls also tended to be the ones who had some kind of ambition, whereas the ones she preferred to hang out with would think that representing your county in sport was uncool.

I met a guy at university with this mentality. He achieved well at school, read Philosophy at Oxford but had funny ideas about living off the state and had some kind of Romantic vision of it. He shoplifted and all sorts as he “did not believe in property”.

He was non-contact with his family due to their extreme religious views. Like your daughter he had grown up without any money worries.

He ended up in a very controlling relationship and became an absolute shell of himself. The girlfriend was a “normal” person with a job in the City. She held the purse strings and he just bumbled about in her flat. (Prior to her he had been illegally-subletting a council flat). When he eventually tried to get his life back together she was horrid about it and road blocked his attempts.

I would take the advice about therapy seriously. It sounds like your daughter has unresolved or emerging trauma and is trying to understand the picture of herself better.

Finally, I saw your suggestion of her getting a job in the supermarket, this would be your call. My parents made me work a Christmas at M&S. I really thought it beneath me before I started, but it did wonders for my confidence and I actually met some lovely people working there and the money was all “surplus” (ie not rent or food etc) so I had a very positive earning/saving experience, which it sounds like your daughter could use. It’s also pretty damn boring, so hopefully it will inspire her to find something more interesting!