To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

Do you know anything about the circumstances of her birth mother OP? Particularly during pregnancy? I don’t want to make any wild speculation but I did wonder if perhaps your daughter may have been exposed to excessive alcohol consumption while in utero. Many kids that are can really struggle with simple aspects of life, particularly in educational settings and moving on to independent living as an adult.

Seconding @JennieTheZebra . Given her background there is going to be a whole lot more going on here than laziness, and her attitude is likely clouded by a low confidence and a lack of self worth.

My DD is 17, ND, similarly naive/immature and has had some issues remaining in education - but has benefitted hugely from seeing a clinical psychologist over the past year. Much of the wisdom she has taken on board from the therapist is the same stuff DH and I have been telling her for years, but obviously she would not listen to us.

I wouldn’t be driving her to London… if it’s all there for the taking she can save and get herself there?

Not in your position just yet but both my kids have been told you are supported to study or you work. She needs to be forced into that sooner rather than later so she understands how fucking hard a McDonald’s shift is, even if they would employ her

Please seek some specialist advice. Your DD sounds EXACTLY like my adopted cousin who, despite being brought up in a loving home, acted out her early traumas by being delinquent and running away at 16.
Do NOT blame yourself for her behaviour and potty ideas. You and she need help before she gets in deep trouble.

Not in your position just yet but both my kids have been told you are supported to study or you work

DS has been told that too…

I can't vote because both of your options are too extreme IMO.

I wouldn't be rolling out banners and pom poms to cheerlead the "plan", but I would also not be trying especially hard to prevent it - what's the point? As she says, when she turns 18 you can't stop her from moving in with whoever will have her, and she can apply for whatever she wants as an adult. Also, I do think it's important that children feel we are on their side whatever they choose. That doesn't mean we have to agree with their choices but we should be there with whatever support they need at any time.

OTOH as others have said 2 years can be a long time and since this friend sounds fairly volatile, there's every chance the friendship will blow up/fizzle out by then anyway. Or one of them will get into a relationship so they won't want to live with each other any more. And I expect it isn't really as simple as going to sign on the dole and live a life of partying forever. They expect you to prove your work seeking activity for one thing. If this does ever happen (which is fairly unlikely) then it is unlikely to last long so don't burn any bridges, she will probably come back.

When I was 16 I made all kinds of dubious plans with my best friend and by the time we were 18 we had fallen out and were no longer speaking. And we had been inseperable since we were 11. I think 16yos have this idea that they are all grown up and can do anything but there is quite a lot of maturing which happens over the next 2/3/5+ years and they realise fairly quickly that some of their ideas at 16 were a bit silly and unrealistic anyway.

I would probably just try to be neutral about the idea, or only emphasise the aspects of it that sound nice (e.g. moving into a shared house with friends) and maybe have some convos or do some things together (e.g. learning to cook/make a budget "for when you move to your house share") but don't stop suggesting alternatives just in case something sparks an interest. I don't personally think it's helpful to decide over a child's head (esp one as old as 16) that a set course of action is "better" or invest too much in trying to persuade them of anything - it's really her choice to make. I think you could tell her things like reasons why you might personally choose a different option, or a real experience or observation you/a friend/etc has had, but you shouldn't presume that she ought to feel the same way or attach a kind of moral judgement to either choice. That kind of thing adds a lot of pressure and is just asking for a reactance kind of response (where she wants to kick back and do the opposite).

Autonomy, support and curiosity tends to be my approach.

It sounds like she’s having a crisis of identity. She’s got her pre-adopted background (what does she know about this? Has she had any opportunity to connect with her roots - where she is from, etc) and she’s got her post adoption privileged life with her family. And now she’s got the transition between childhood and adulthood to deal with where she’s trying to figure out who she is and what her identity is. She’s trying to figure out where she fits in in society. Is she like her birth family, her adopted family, or something else. It’s a confusing time for her and it makes sense she’s sought out friendships with people who have had a difficult background, they understand what it feels like to not fit in, to feel different to everyone else.

Does she have any role models? I mean people who she can relate to, people who get it, who understand on a personal level, people who have been through the care system and people who have been through adoption themselves - people who have a different identity to the family they were raised in and embrace it in a positive way and have been successful in achieving a good life for themselves.

I’ve only read the updates from OP so sorry if this has already been suggested (it probably has!)

Best tell your daughter that the local supermarket and Mcdonalds wont want her ! You need minimum GCSE'S or at least "functional skills" for all retail and hospitality positions now (unless its your uncles franchise etcetc). Shes 16 and sounds depressed. A large house doesnt mean all her needs are being met or that shes happy in herself sorry OP.

To be honest, no consequences. I sat down and asked her why and she said it was too hard, and when I tried to dig deeper and ask why she thought it was hard, and to explain that it's important to try and not to worry about getting it wrong because that's what tests are for, she just got very upset and said that I can't understand why she thought it was hard because I'm not her.

And absolutely contact post adoption support services so she can access the support she needs. Are her younger siblings also adopted?
if she was adopted aged three there will have been significant trauma even if she does not have a conscious memory of it. And given that there will be attachment issues.
She may well be unlikely to do her education etc along conventional expectations and she needs time to work things out. Totally agree that she needs to ideally get a job but the idea of “consequences” in a situation of likely attachment issues is a dangerous path.
you do not want this to become more acrimonious than it needs to be. And she needs to know that the door remains open.

I've put YABU because I think she has mental health issues and needs counselling. This is a self esteem issue. No kid is 'lazy'. I honestly do not believe that. There's some reason she has turned her back on education.. an inability to focus due to anxiety or adhd? feelings of being an imposter or outsider? What did she experience before the age of 3?
I do think that at the age of 16 you have to let things play out to an extent.
I had a complete breakdown at 16 and left home and was on drugs
I'm now happily married, own my own home, love my job and have 3 beautiful children. But that was a journey I went on
I got called all sorts at 16. Lazy, unmotivated etc I felt hopeless. I couldn't see a place for myself in the world despite having academic parents and a middle class upbringing. I had anxiety issues and suicidal thoughts. But I was told I was 'spoilt' and I internalised that.
The journey for me was leaving home and finding my own confidence.
You say your daughter is confident but teenagers are all front abd trying to form an identity. She probably doesn't dare try and meet your expectations because she feels she wont ever be able to. So she pretends its 'cool' that shes getting one over on everyone. This is deep seated hopelessness and alienation.
The answer is not to brand her as lazy and spoilt. This will just further entrench her in the idea that she is not a useful member of society. That she is 'bad' and has nothing to offer.
She's not going to turn around and say 'oh yes sorry I see, im wasting my opportunities im going to try harder' because she'd have to admit how scared and worthless she feels deep down to herself.
I think the focus needs to be on her mental health and self esteem. This 'friend' she has is currently providing her with self esteem. She feels important and needed and part of a 'plan'.
She needs,this provided in some other way.
She needs to be in counselling. She probably has quite a lot of trauma abd self esteem and attachment issues.. as well as possibly adhd which can go habd in hand with trauma.
Tough love will just alienate her further and reinforce the feeling that she can't be what you want so why even bother to try.

Both my children have either refused to complete a test or refused to attend school at one time or another. Both are more obviously ND than I realised, and now one has a diagnosis and the other is on the way to having one.

It can feel like you are the only parent going through this and you have failed somehow, when everyone else's children have lots of GCSE's or are planning uni, but I've learned since then that many have struggled along the way or needed a lot of support, and not all have followed the same route at all. People often don't want to admit (or share) what's going on with their teens and it can feel very lonely if yours is going wayward.

I strongly suggest you getting support/therapy for yourself to boost your own coping resources. If you can get her to see someone like a psychologist with ND specialism, or that works a lot with adoptive or teens with difficulties, that would be great, your local random counsellor (sorry counsellors) might not be that helpful.

Does she have some really extreme learning difficulty but trying to mask it?. I’m struggling to understand how a whole paper can be too hard to even write one line on it.

Thank you! I think deep down this is what I hope for. I think the chances of her realising the value of education or training now are minimal as she has not had the opportunity to try life without them, but if she came to us in three, five or ten years and asked if she could go back to get her GCSEs or a vocational course we would always support her. We are just scared that some of the choices she makes between now and then could lead to results she cannot come back from.

THIS. Do you have a support group? This is such a familiar pattern with adopted children, the self sabotage at teenage stage. I've watched three sets of adopted kids in families do this.

It's really tough to navigate, there are no easy solutions, the damage done to these kids before you get them is immense and lies dormant. No one can appreciate the way they can switch into self destruct unless you have seen it. It is not like normal teenage behaviour - no matter how extreme - and I had an extreme bio teenager - I would compare "war stories" with my friends with adopted dc and their lives were so much harder.

She wouldn’t even get a job in McDonalds. I’m an auditor and deal with lots of retail data. The fact that she thinks McDonalds is open to her as a last resort shows her true colours, complete lack of awareness and a good smudge of self entitlement

'Is she neurodivergent?'

Do you not think she would have mentioned in her post if her daughter was ND?

Why do people jump so quickly to the autism spectrum as a reason for bad behaviour? It's insulting to that particular community, surely?

Used to be bipolar. Now it's ND.

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but has she been assessed for any additional needs. She is saying she finda it hard. Have you and school looked into that specifically? Dyslexia, adhd, autism etc are under diagnosed in girls.

ND is around twice as high in adopted children. That’s ADHD as well as autism and other related.

It’s a fair question.

You said you explained to her that it is important to try and not to worry about getting things wrong

Now that is exactly the wrong phrasing for the right sentiment. Important to try is giving her the message that your love and "success/happiness" is conditional on her "trying"." Not to worry ...etc" is dismissing her fears instead of talking through what she exactly finds difficult.

It's like saying to someone who is frightened of motorway driving, don't worry IF YOU CRASH and it's important to get out there on that motorway even before you have the skills. It feels like a motorway to her to do the exam - driving on a motorway when she has no idea HOW TO DRIVE.

Having raised a lad who broke my heart at this age .... and being an educator for over thirty years my advice is don't raise to the bait .Your daughter is without you knowing getting alot of attention out of your reactions to these plans .In my experience no one plans on doing badly in school or in education.There is always a reason..be it a learning difficulty or overwhelm, or immaturity at early stages and child lost footing .It could also be simple fear of failure . Obviously the waters pretty hot at the moment..so id simply switch tact .Be genuinely openly curious.Then in few months when this settles be jointly constructive gently .Look at alternative careers .Hairdressing , bar work , gardening .barista courses .Help her like you'd help a dear friend.I know it's easier said than done but strangely your daughter needs kindness and calmness .After the very torrid storm with my own beautiful boy I discovered underneath a biological clinical depression that was masked for years. All the best .You sound like a caring parent. You'll do great .

🙄

I was similar to your daughter in that I felt education and work was not for me and I resented my parents who enforced rules, which in hindsight were not a bit deal and there for my safety.

I insisted life would be better if I left school which I did at 15, parents tried to force the school to take me back but I just refused to go. I met someone who had family living in a UK city and were living the bohemian life, chilling at their flat, claiming benefits, no rules just fun and I ran away from home to pursue it.

I was shortly brought back to earth when the benefits received were so little to survive on. I couldn't pay the girls family rent as a result so got kicked out, lived in a squat with a very violent man and ended up begging on the streets.

Someone took pity on me and paid my way back to my parents house. I went back to school, scraped my qualifications and am now a mid forties nice lady with kids and a responsible job and everything. The actual act of living as I wanted scared the shit out of me.

I dont know if it will be the same for your girl, she has the benefit of going home to comfort where her friends do not and there is a safety net there that makes people reckless with decisions.

As fine as I am now I ended up in very dangerous situations that I should not have been in and I agree its important to support your daughter so she doesn't end up the same. What would have helped me at the time was counselling. I didn't know it and people couldn't tell but I had a lot of trauma and anger and I feel if these had been addressed, if I had been listened to, I wouldn't have gone. I would start there, it sounds like you have the resources to maybe access private which would speed up the process and open up more services. Tell her your support on her decision hinges on the fact she attends these sessions, I think she will really benefit once you find the right person.

This and her response of "You don't understand because you're not me" suggests it's not that she's found it cognitively hard (ie she is intelligent enough to manage) or physically hard (ie she can write), it's more of an emotional/psychological block, which she might not be able to work out with her parent, she might need space and time or possibly therapy although it might not be the right time for that for her either.

OP, have you ever read The Explosive Child? There are some useful ideas in there about ways to have productive discussions about things that a child finds hard in a way which is difficult to understand from the outside, or seems like they are just choosing not to do the thing or being lazy or obstinate etc. The moments where you're like "I just don't understand why they don't just do the thing?! It's so easy/obvious, if they would just do it..." Ross Greene has this wonderful phrase "Kids do well if they can" - ie no matter how much it sometimes looks that way, kids (well people, really) don't want to do badly in life, they want to do well. When it looks like they are choosing to do badly it's generally because they feel they have no other option and it can be helpful to get curious about why, without making them feel like they are under more pressure which often just makes it worse.