To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

@soupyspoon are we talking drugs or actual damage from.aokerhnf else

I put money on this friend not being around in two years

These sorts of people are notoriously unstable. They'll just lose touch. And so much better for your DD.

She doesnt sound like a "bad" kid but she is being bratty.

If it were me, id strip back funding anything for her but the basics unless she earns additional money by getting a part time job or maybe running errands for you.

I appreciate youre saying you cant punish her but tbh benefits in london wont get you far in terms of basic comfort and McDs want qualifications too. Obviously once shes 18 she can go if she likes but I really think you want to work between now and then towards getting some resits

@FatEndoftheWedge look up Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACES) and the impact of pre-birth trauma as a starting point. Many children simply have the deck stacked against them, right from conception.

Does she follow the news? Huge changes are coming to get young people into work ...it is going to be very hard NOT to 'work' as a young person no matter how vulnerable ..whether that be a job or work training ...with sanctions if you don't comply

On second thought thoughts listen to 14HoursToSaveTheEarth… the mental health nurse first..

In my experience if you tell teenagers no, try to rationally discuss why their idea are ridiculous, point out the errors of their ways it just makes them more determined. They are like toddlers with phones. I would just smile and nod. She will grow up but it does take a long time.

What consequence did you give her disrespect and laziness she showed here?

The pre birth harm?

Maternal stress, DV to or from the parent, between the parents, physical stressors, drink, drugs, physical health needs, all sorts of stressors.

What benefits does she think she’ll get as a single young person with no dependents would get hardly anything. I’d be tempted to let her go and she’ll soon see what a struggle it is to live on so little so she’ll end up moving home or maybe even getting a job

Do you think she thinks her birth family live on benefits ? ( no disrespect to anyone)

There are 2 years between now and 18 and enough time to educate her better ! She lives a live of previlege because you allow it . Take away her privileges , give her 2 choices either go back to school and do well or get a job . Take away her phone , internet , new clothes , lifts , makeup .

Speak to your LA and ask about the adoption support fund that can assist with therapy

@JennieTheZebra thanks had a quick look thats really interesting.
I can see the types of impact on kids but I can't see anything specific about something other than drugs affecting in utero

She sounds very anxious. You may have or school may have, inadvertently said, you need qualifications to get a good job, and she thinks she is a failure so better to just tell herself she didn't want a job anyway. The girl with problems makes her feel less of a failure and more of a protector/heroine/adventurer , which is how she feels good about herself.

Is there someone else she can protect and save? Animals, nature etc? She sounds like she might be a passionate advocate for something or someone (as long as it's not a cult) Altruism is quite a powerful way of supporting self esteem.

When I was her age I remember a few people arguing with their parents that they didn't want to go to university and tbh it was because they wanted someone to listen and be interested. It wasn't because they wanted a hardline" you will go to university or you will end up destitute and miserable" , they just wanted support and someone to let them talk things through discuss several options neutrally. In fact the last thing they wanted was someone to agree that university was a bad idea. That is just one example, of a tricky balance to be made

Maybe she is wanting to talk through fantasies of independence or discuss how hard "work" feels to her. Maybe she has a very black and white (common to teenage brain not just neurodiverse) view of what work actually is. It could be in the evenings not 9 to 5, it could be fun, it could involve no writing - who knows. And it could be a project that isn't even paid work.

She is 16! Her life plan sounds not unsimilar to my own at around that age. Only mine also involved squats and New Age travellers (it was a good few years ago.
After a few years I kind of noticed that life without any qualifications was a bit dire especially as most other people I knew seemed to have magically acquired them somewhere along the way and were moving on with their lives and had choices I did not have. So I got myself back into education etc. But my choices at 16/17 were not wrong and when I got back in I did know what I wanted to do and it was on my terms.
Living off benefits for a few years and experimenting with a variety of jobs is not the end of the world and will give her experiences that are valuable, especially if she comes from a fairly privileged background. Just make sure you leave the door and channels of communication open.

Drugs get a lot of the blame. But there was a project in Canada where drug involved women were given safe homes, with counselling, free from male violence, good nutrition etc. They were still using illicit drugs in many cases. The outcomes were better than women who were in abusive relationships. It seems that drugs may be comorbid with other, more harmful, causes of childhood adversity.

Alcohol is still a huge and impactful thing.

I agree with everyone who suggested you go to the adoption boards. Parenting a teen with significant early trauma is very different than what you might do with a teen without these issues.

I would not be stressed about this particular plan, this is by the by as this friend will drop out of view. The problem remains though- I don't understand why she didn't have any GCSE results whatsoever, did she not sit any of the 20 something exams needed for 11 GCSE's, did she not do Maths or English and was she a school refuser? This isn't clear to me, as I don't know how someone can get nothing unless they refused to attend, even poor achievers get something.

More generally, she needs mental health support, therapy, period of love bombing and you perhaps working on being less reactive emotionally yourself to her ups and downs. This is the counsel of perfection, I struggled with this myself massively, but the thing that has helped me the most has been learning about 'loving detachment' from the AA way of thinking- in other words, you can love and care and support, but you don't need to go on every tiny emotional roller-coaster with them and feel like your own life and happiness depends on them. It's the hardest thing to do and I still find it hard, but it's easier now. Increasing your own coping skills will help her to learn to emotionally self-regulate over time and/or save you from losing your own mind.

Teens can be very stressful indeed, the best thing to do is not to overreact at such plans and say 'you could do that, that will be your choice' and go about trying to get her back into education to do her basic Maths and English, have friends, and live a good life. I suspect you are quite naive about what 16 year olds get up to though if you think she hasn't tried drugs or sex- perhaps not, but perhaps so, and I think you need to stop panicking and realise you have an adult (a very immature and possibly difficult one) on your hands. Technically, she can leave home or go abroad by herself and you need to start parenting her like the young woman she is now.

The brain development in utero is affected by the biological impacts of hormonal/physical effects on the parent but how that interplays in the body for the developing child, so there is a higher risk of MH disorders, ND, LD, emotional dysregulation, conduct disorders.

Does she have any interest in animals? Horses are incredible for therapy. If you can find a specialist therapy centre, maybe it will spark a real interest in working with animals.
Would she volunteer at a local stables or an animal / birds rescue centre? Although it would be physical work, if she truly enjoyed the company of animals she might find it rewarding. Who knows, maybe become a vet in 10 years time? Or get involved with an international rescue/rehabilitation organisation?
She needs to find something that gives her confidence, peace and satisfaction.
Has she tried many sports? There's a sport out there for everyone, from chess to tennis to karting to anything you can think of. If she would show decent ability and actually enjoy it, that would help with self discipline and might even lead to a job eventually. A lot of sports are quite expensive so it might spur her into wanting to earn money to pursue the sport.

When she said test was too hard she is telling you something important. That's when you listen. What was hard? Was it writing? The test conditions? Could she have prompts or extra time or breaks during the test? Could they scribe her answers.. I'm amazed that this isn't considered some sort of psychological issue that she didn't write a single word. Fight flight or freeze is a response to danger.

While we are not local, I do know that the girls are what they say they are (in that they are not middle aged men hiding behind an avatar). They facetime and we have been called in to say hi or have waved over her shoulder when we were in the kitchen while she was chatting. I don't think they are bad people. I just think life has dealt them a bad hand, and while I wish them all the luck in the world, I don't want DD following them down that path.

Thankyou i thought i was going insane

The son of someone I know decided they wanted this lifestyle when they were 15. The causal factors for him were ADHD, drugs, influential friends, truancy and poor motivation at school.

His parents were worried sick and tried to pull him back onto a good life path. All this lead to though was a lot of family conflict which he was able to spin to convince the authorities that he was at risk living at home.

He fabricated allegations of abuse and ended up voluntarily entering the care system at 16. He had clearly done a lot of research and was very much influenced by friends. He had various placements within the care system until he was finally given his own apartment for living independently with all costs heavily subsidised which was what he always wanted.

Now he is older he works a maximum of 2 days a week in minimum wage jobs (but is often unemployed) and seems to have a lot of privileges due to his status as a care leaver which other people his age wouldn't have access to.

@OP The bit that made me think that your story has similarities to this family's is where you said your DD says people would be mugs for wanting to live a conventional life. This is exactly how it started for my friends son. It has been an extremely stressful time.

Wishing you all the best

Given its 2 years away and she’ll change anyway, I’d play along a little bit now, and then when it’s appropriate, just drop a few nuggets in occasionally about “well of course when you are in London you won’t be able to afford this” or “this will be difficult because…” etc.
If said just conversationally and not as a lecture, the reality of what she’s planning might just begin to percolate through. You have to be not judgemental though or it won’t work. You could also see what benefits she’d get and what costs she’d have - in the name of “helping her to make plans and learning to budget, for when she’s living in London”.