To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

She doesn’t care, she doesn’t want any kind of job.

She doesnt want a job

She may well have internalised OP's view about supermarket jobs being something you do without any ambition, possibly seeing it as a low down job, a nothing job for nothing people, so this is what she names when finding the worse type of example of 'this is what I'll do at most' , some shitty supermarket job.

Its not motivating to tell her 'they wont even employ you', she doesnt care about that

But she absolutely does need to work and pronto.

@Homegrownberries good posts.

It’s been long established that children separated from their birth parents often need much more than secure, attuned parenting. I don’t know how long ago you were adopted but for the last 15/20 years the vast majority of adoption in the UK are of children removed from birth parents due to abuse and/or neglect, children are rarely relinquished willingly and the threshold for removal is very high, meaning children live in actively harmful environments for much longer than they should.

That neglect and abuse impacts their development beyond the realms where loving, boundaries parenting can heal - specialist support is invaluable to supporting adopted kids into adulthood.

Actually yes that's true 🙁
@14HoursToSaveTheEarth even if she did manage to be living on benefits what does she actually want to be doing every day?
There MUST be something she gets fun and pleasure out off.

I second moving this to the adoption board for more focused advice and don’t take personally some of the less supportive comments,

I would get in touch with post adoption support in your local area ASAP and her some DDP through the adoption support fund,

Whilst I agree alot can change in 2 years given her background trauma she is likely to need professional input to support change in the right direction

It was similar but minus the 7bedroom house ,different scenario in a way the 15 year old was marking off the days on the calendar and put her head full of magic plan into action once hitting 16.

Last summer c.40% of Maths and English Language GCSE participants failed. A lot of children retake either in November or the following summer. It really isn’t unusual. It would be good if she could identify a future opportunity that interests her more then working in McDonald’s and use that to motivate her to scrape a pass. Are there any agricultural colleges near you? They have a great array of courses - animal care, floristry… as well as the usual courses.

She is only 16 and will be completely different by the time she is 18. I’d focus on maintaining as positive, loving and supportive a relationship as you possibly can. That might look like spoiling her, but she is testing you. Prove that you will always love her. Don’t nag her, but communicate honestly about what you believe - qualifications are worth having, work is rewarding and an essential part of life etc. She’s not going to turn round and say “Do you know what, I’ve realised you’re right,” but your words will be going in nevertheless. Try and identify things she does like to do - dance? Art? Music? Sport? Then encourage her to do what she loves in a fun unpressured way. She’s clearly really struggling but you need to hide your panic - stay calm and try not to give her too much reason to fight against you.

In what way too hard?
Could she be dyslexic? People often go undiagnosed when they are generally bright and articulate.

When I was 15, I aspired to living in a squat and "being punk". I am now a seriously dull office worker, with a cat, two young children and a mortgage.

Honestly I think "rebelling" against you is making the whole thing seem sweeter to her, you're playing into it. Furthermore, you can't stop an 18 year old from moving out to wherever they want (or from 16 even). If it were me, I'd tell her why I thought it was a bad idea, then let her get on with it. The shine will very quickly wear off, and after what will likely be a short, sharp and bleak life lesson, she'll be more mature and in a better place to see what she needs to do to have a decent quality of life. We all want to shield our children, but by the time people are young adults, all you can do is be there to pick up the pieces. I'd make sure life at yours isn't overly cushy either, so she doesn't flit from being a doley with her friends, to dossing about yours when it all goes wrong. That is, she pays towards her board (even if it's part of her benefits and you don't need the money yourself), she does chores and has to treat your house with respect.

i Think she doesn’t realise how well her bread is buttered. What about some international volunteering or experience at an international school https://www.uwcea.org/ they have schools in east Africa.. or https://www.projects-abroad.co.uk/projects/volunteer-childcare-for-teenagers-tanzania/. She needs a cause.. Life she has mapped out for herself sounds desperately boring

I dare say she can do what she likes at 18
But today, make her study give her consequences.
My daughter's 16 next week, I know everything she likes and hates.
If she doesn't do her homework, phone taken away, etc
Find the things she values, reward her for things and give her consequences for not etc
You can't write her off at 16.

I wouldnt be surprised at all and you'll have seen my other posts on this thread about questions which havent been answered about her birth family.

But equally we should work with what we have in front of us and what is being presented, she may well not care, genuinely, its patronising to consider that this is never true. It might be true, it might not.

Could she feel guilty about her privilege OP, compared with the friends she's made - almost like a kind of survivor guilt? Wanting to prove - to herself and others - that she could manage, however rough the circumstances, without all the support you've given her? Might they tease her mercilessly about her comfortable life?

Maybe it's worth stressing that being on benefits makes you MORE of a slave to the system (because they keep their beady eye on you constantly, and you are required to prove various things over and over), and extremely vulnerable to any policy changes. Being on benefits is not dancing to your own tune, quite the reverse.

Two years is a long time, I do hope she finds her way to a more balanced/realistic view. Good luck OP.

@Genevieva 40% of kids failed their maths and English last year ??

Do you think she's telling the truth?

There were kids at my school who said they were planning to live on benefits but in reality they were expecting their parents to give them handouts. It sounds as if you're quite well off so that could be even more true here.

I was friends with one guy being out of work for about three years, he did have GCSEs but failed his A-levels. Eventually he realised that he had absolutely no life except getting involved with dodgy types at gambling,. His parents wouldn't have him. He ended up in a very basic room in a very cold house. A couple of his housemates were complete wasters and drug addicts and that made him think a bit.

And then he got off his arse and found a job. Of course, the risk there is if the person actually likes the lifestyle.

I would agree that there's a long time before she turns 18 but I think she needs a reason to believe that she needs to work.

Could you withdraw all except essential financial stuff? So she'd have to pay for her phone. It's perfectly reasonable for her to get a job at the moment, isn't it? How many hours is the course?

if she sees that she can't get a job and sees that she has no spare cash that might help?

also, this friend that she's talking about, they probably won't be friends by the time it all happens.

In terms of a carrot and stick approach, what would the carrot be? Could you say to her that if she earns X amount, you will take her on holiday or something?

@AxolotlEars what are neurobiology changes in utero ?

I teach a 19 year old adoptee at the moment. He is still taking his GCSEs. Low attendance and slow progress, but we think he will pass next time. He is technically Y14 and has council funding for this year and next year due to his circumstances. Your daughter will get at least one extra year.

Do you fund a current life style? Can you make her life more difficult by removing any money support? Can she try and get a job at McDonald’s now to see how it’s not as easy as she thinks?

Have you done the maths with her, what would she actually be entitled too? How much would her bills be? Can she still afford the makeup and face cream she cared about etc?

OP, I would be worried about this online “friend” who seems to lead such a dysfunctional life. It seems that she is making it possible for your DD to have an idea of her future in a flat in London - which probably sounds quite glamorous to your DD, but which in reality is probably far from desirable. If your DD has a privileged life, she probably has no idea of the realities of living hand to mouth, and how it’s not much fun being constantly short of money and having to spend your life applying for jobs with little prospect of success. What exactly does she think she will be doing all day, with this friend in London? If the friend has had a miscarriage, in all probability she’ll get pregnant again - how is your DD going to fit into this scenario with a baby as well, because it sounds as though SSs will be involved. Obviously it’s not a thought-through scheme on your DD’s part, but if she is the sort of headstrong, stubborn girl you describe, she might end up doing it just to “show you”. Yes, a lot can change in a couple of years, but I feel for you, OP - it’s a horrible position to be in. As to what you should do, I would want to see just exactly what this flat is that that your DD is thinking of moving in to (and also to meet the “friend”) - perhaps the reality of it after a well-appointed and spacious home might be enough to put her off. Or perhaps the friend’s situation will have changed and she won’t want your DD moving in any more. It all sounds incredibly difficult - but if she insists on going, I would take her down there, assuming this hare-brained scheme is still in the running, if only to have the facts to put before her, and to see just what it is that she’s letting herself in for.

McDonald’s won’t want her

You need to look it up, its a big subject. Its why children exposed to harm pre birth are at higher risk of a whole host of conditions and disorders and impacted life experiences.

Lots of things can change in two years. Would she consider an apprenticeship in something? You could sell it to her a something she could have as a ‘side income ’ type thing ? Maybe don’t give her too much pocket money or tell her any pay she gets can be saved to furnish her london flat or something ? If she’s not sitting around and out meeting new people ..new horizons the friend in london may end up on the back burner.

Agree with PP who suggested that this is likely more complex than teenage lust to beat the system, given she is adopted. I also completely disagree with posters who suggest ‘it will pass’. Lots of teens have crazy notions of all sorts, but most go and get some sort of GCSE - to not get any sounds like she is absolutely clear on her path and will pursue it at all costs (the stubbornness will also be kicking in here).

To be honest, I think you have to tread a fine line between your two options - love her, tell her you love her and want her to be happy, but agree some boundaries with your DH that you stick about the extent to which you’ll enable her (particularly around money etc) and also be clear with her about those. Completely enabling her is frankly bonkers and you’ll likely end up with her using you mercifully as an adult. Trying to stop her will probably result in you losing her altogether. I’m so sorry you are facing this, incredibly tough for you all.