To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

Correct, she will be asked to leave in time and will be NEET which is why she needs a job.

And having a part time job for kids at school and college, no matter how well or badly they're doing at school, is in my view absolutely vital. Its non negotiable as far as Im concerned.
Its not about working in a supermarket becuase thats your ambition and life dream, its to develop a sense of responsibility, accountability, routine, structure, life skills, social skills, being part of the workforce and all that comes with that.

We dont do kids any favours at all by not allowing them to work.

Whenever I go to McDonald’s I’m always struck by how polite and helpful the young staff are. Better than the waiting staff in most “posh” establishments.

Getting off track but anyway - I agree that working at McDonald’s is nothing to be sneered at and is usually favoured by students earning a bit of money on the side.

Dh’s first job was at McDonald’s and he is now very, very successful.

She may struggle to get a part time job as she didn't get her GCSEs but she might be able to do some volunteering or focus on a hobby. There must be something she would enjoy?
Many 6 form age teens struggle to get jobs - even the ones with 10 Grade 9s. Many places simply won't employ under 18s.

From the teenage tear-away perspective- I was very much like your DD, but a bit more of a nightmare, doing what I wanted when I wanted despite all the love in the world from my mum and her only wanting the best for me.

I turned out okay. Yes I had 2 children by 18, but that gave me the kick up the backside I needed to leave a toxic relationship and get back into education (currently studying for my PhD, left school with next to nothing).

There will be light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm wondering about a mental health evaluation. Manipulation, wanting to live off others, turning vicious... seems narcissistic & psychopathic. Obv I could be, and hope to be wrong, but that behaviour is deeply concerning.

?

Sorry if crossed post - As an adopted person - abandoned at birth by their birth mother, your genetics and trauma can be overcome to some extent by a nurturing secure adoption placement so find many of these comments quite disturbing as from those without lived experience and just based on research to some extent or the presumption being adopted will bring trauma and discord? - some of the comments above are fair but do not explain the issues here - each child will be different and will have different level of resilience to separation and trauma in this one must consider personality type, how needs are met, neuro typical or not etc etc - which in turn impacts their view of the world and how they see themselves in it - if they have a comfortable life there is a sense they know they will be supported whatever as loved and helped which is what parents do - so could be why they have an entitled view or perhaps l scared of the future feel a failure so reacting with denial to the weight growing up brings -your choice here is paramount as care givers around what boundaries to set and what to finance as being adopted should not be the rhetoric here but their ability to emotionally cope with life and becoming an adult and be equipped to do this and be realistic - mh or neuro position might impact their ability to be realistic

I'd be interested in more stats on this. I agree perhaps on the 'smarter not harder' - but for both my kids and all of their friendship group of these ages they seem to have a great work ethic. My pair haven't been the best academically, but both love work. My DS has had a job since 16 - he's now 19 and is in uni 3 days pw and then works either 3 or 4 shifts on the other days. My niece is a little older now (22) but has often worked two jobs as well as uni and had a job since 16. My DD is now 16 and works both weekend days in her p/t job on top of sixth form and absolutely love it. The only difference I can see here though is that they are a) all v independent and seem to want to have that feeling of providing for themselves b) don't necessarily have everything given by us as parents c) quite motivated by money!

OP I really feel for you because it's hard without any of these motivators. I don't think there's any one right answer to how to handle this but at least you and DH are on the same page. I think trying to get some specialist help from the adoption side if possible might be the right route.

I’d take her to the solicitors and show her the draft copy of your will where it’s clear she gets nothing for her lazy attitude. Then goodluck to her, she either ups her game or can live off the state forever.

Surely she will fall at the first hurdle? She will need an address to claim benefits. If her friend is housed by the council, will they allow her a roommate or to add a tenant onto the lease?

She would need to consent to this and want to engage

Does she sound like she would want to engage?

Hi OP, not read the entire thread but I would echo posters who have highlighted your daughter’s early childhood experiences.
I have supported children who were removed as young as a few months old who experience difficulties in forming and maintaining relationships alongside other behaviours that are strongly indicative as a response to adverse childhood experiences.
In many ways the emotional immaturity that you describe aligns with the trauma response and her desire to connect with other friends who have had difficult starts is really quite commonplace and, when you think about it, understandable. Your daughter is seeking connections almost as a validation of her internal perceptions of self.

i do hope that she is open to therapy as this could be a breakthrough to allow for validation and acknowledgment of her trauma and also providing her with tools and strategies to build her self esteem

Teens are developing their individuality - it is a lonely process, and uniqueness does not come easy. Throw adoption into the mix and it ramps up.
Ditto - a death, a divorce and so on.

We had a sudden death to deal with for example - it was brutal, and still revisits at every new stage of life.

So all will have their common general process, and they own particular one.

I would not ignore that.

But!

I would also help her "get ready" for this fun life.

A job to supply all extras and some basics (her phone) should be the very least.

It is amazing how "need" can sharpen the mind.

I think the adoption is absolutely significant and I don't like the reference to 'undesirables' at all but it seems that she's close to someone who has experience of trauma and abuse and is looked after (or has been) and presumably she is aware this could have been her life too? And I don't know her at all but it feels like there is something very telling about not trying so you can't fail / disappoint. Sometimes it's easier to say you don't want something than admit how desperately you do It's really complex and I think she'd benefit from some therapy (as you all probably would) from a specialist. I know it probably won't be forthcoming from the local authority so it might be something you have to source privately

If course she could just be being completely teenage and silly but my gut says there's something here! There is a reason why previously looked after / adopted children have priority access to services such as schools

Does she have any difficulties with learning? It can be easier to seem to be choosing to do badly than worry you will do badly even if you try.

People are getting very fixated on McDonalds, saying about how McDonald’s wouldn’t employ her and she should go and do some work experience at McDonald’s and “why does she think she’d enjoy working at McDonald’s”. She doesn’t want to work at McDonalds- McDonald’s is by the by. That’s just a random place she’s picked that she thinks sounds dead-end. If you read the OP it says “at most they’ll get a job at McDonald’s”. Not that it’s her burning desire to work at McDonald’s. It’s not some big gotcha to tell her McDonalds won’t employ her without GCSEs and that it will make her work harder to get her “dream” job at McDonald’s- she doesn’t actually want to work there at all.

Your husband and yourself are both well educated. I'm wondering if there's a certain baseline level of natural academic ability that you take for granted that actually isn't as common as you think it is. Maybe she said that the test was too hard because the test actually was too hard. Maybe she's afraid to try because her best efforts won't come near to what she thinks is expected. I'm wondering if all of this refusal to engage in anything is actually a lack of confidence in her own ability. It's easier to shrug off low grades if you don't try than it is to accept low grades if you do try.

In terms of college, there are plenty of opportunities without GCSEs. Even with a set of 9s, an aspiring hairdresser would start at Level 2. There are Level 1 courses in some vocational subjects. She could quite easily pick up a vocational area and go all the way from 1- 3, higher in some. Please seek further advice from your local further education college. She doesn’t have to be in education or an apprenticeship either; she could be in work, but that work should provide training opportunities. There are no set rules on what this means.

I understand it is a challenging time, and I wish you well. Perhaps getting her away from pointless resits and into something that may spark an interest may help.

Yes but with no GCSEs at all nowhere will employ her. She's obviously got into her head that places like McDonald's will be handing out jobs to anyone - but they simply won't and neither will any other fast food places, supermarkets, factories, cleaning jobs or similar jobs that she seems to think are easy to get.

Exactly such a lack of understanding of young people like this

Similarly when posters are aghast at 'what does she think she is going to do with no GCSEs'

She doesnt care!! Thats the point, she is saying she doesnt care and she may even feel that at the moment because she cant comprehend the enormity and drudgery of life, she hasnt been exposed to any realities of life.

Has she been assessed for Reactive Attachment Disorder (it's rare but more common in adopted or care experienced young people)? There's something about her actively aspiring to discomfort, and not caring about life's usual rewards and consequences that feels like it could be connected.

@soupyspoon you’d be surprised. Many people like this just want someone to listen to them. It just takes the right questions and a non-judgemental attitude. This is 100x the case if they’re young. She’s crying out for help and feels like no one understands or cares. I’ve seen it half a dozen times, just this week.

Yes most Gen Z are not like this in my experience (I am one myself)

Op what was her past education record like though I'm struggling to make sense of either sudden failure from a good trajectory or constant no hope?
It's just there is no way anything should be a surprise at hsxe and if she was struggling whyndidnt the school intervene sooner or you and get tutors ??

Most children do want to do well it's the ones worth trauma or Sen who are being failed

Maybe she's not had supper and help and is now being given hope by the other failed students ??
That it doesn't matter ?
I'm just finding this background of privilege hard to square with a child who doesn't seem to have had much educational help ?

Wow. That is not what I expected tonight. Thank you.