To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

does she get pocket money or an allowance? I stopped when my DC were 16 so they had to get part time jobs. They’re now uni educated and are high flyers.

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth being adopted, even by the most wonderful people, leaves deep trauma. Rather it can be the implied abandonment that comes before the adotpion. Some adoptees go to one or the other extreme - either extra well behaved, or rebellious. Sometimes struggle and become promiscuous trying to be ‘wanted’. I would suggest she needs help to deal with her lack of self-esteem that means she’s subconsciously trying to find her tribe … however unsuitable.

Don't give her money. If she wants money, outside of gifts, the only way for her to get it is to work. Be that doing agreed jobs around the house or getting a part time job.

Are you joking or have you ever worked in education or with teens. Many aspire to a life on benefits as its seen as easy.
I remember over 14 years ago stopping one of my lessons to write up a benefits breakdown in a class of boys as they were all adamant they didn't need to work as their parents go so much in benefits they would just do the same.
And for what's it's worth, I am a benefit recipient so definitely don't look down at it. Just work very hard so that's its not seen as a desired lifestyle

It sounds like she's a fairly low-IQ person with high-IQ parents, which must be really tough. Most of us can't imagine what it's like to be raised by people who are so innately, genetically different from us. It also sounds like you and your DH work really hard but are also well-rewarded for it. She's realized that she's only ever going to be capable of the kinds of jobs where you work really hard and get crap money as well. Which must feel doubly lousy when you have family members who have so much more. It's not hard to see why she wants to just opt out. But that's really all the more reason to do all you can to get up to face up to reality now. I think you need to take the phone and the Netflix now - not as a punishment but as a way of teaching her the value of money. She gets a job and she either pays for those things or she doesn't have them. And then when she's got used to what she's earning per hour, you can show her how much London rents are. And talk to her about the cost of utilities, and council tax, and all the other needs of a person living independently (before you even get onto the cost of the wants). Tot it all up, divide it by what she gets per hour, and maybe she'll see the point. Or maybe not, and she'll head off to London at 18 and learn the hard way. But at least do everything you can to make her see it before she's on her own - a naive teen, alone in London, who'll become a magnet for dodgy people. Does she understand the rules on UC? When you tell her that she won't be eligible for the same help as a care leaver, what does she say?

I think the most likely scenario here is that she doesn't take off at 18 at all - she just stays with you, doing nothing and expecting you to pay her bills. (The second most likely is that when she realizes nobody's going to give her free money indefinitely as a healthy single and childless person, she gets pregnant). Get tough and make her work - any work she can get - now.

The more you keep on at her the more she will dig her heels in. keep quiet about for a little while , she just might change her mind of her own free will.

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth

Goodness! What a fascinating thread!! How frustrating and upsetting too, OP.

I’m sure it’s already been said, there are a lot of replies, but just in case, as this is a really important issue, my 2p’s worth is that it feels like autism with pathological demand avoidance. She is indeed vulnerable.

Try to support her on anything creative that she enjoys, defo look into some proper therapy too. There’s a good chance she’ll come round in a few years when she has had some real life lessons and reality checks, but it’ll need to be in her own time.

Do your best to keep the communication open.

Good luck!

The tough love advice is really really inappropriate and counter productive given the child the OP has described and her updates. This is a child that has mentally shut down and fantasises about running away to London like Dick Whittington and his cat. She is described as naive and not materialistic. She has few friends in real life, struggles socially and is vulnerable to some possible online grooming with older women posing as her ‘only friends.’
She can’t even cope with the schoolwork.

This is not the time to start taking away basic things like a phone or forbidding using Netflix in the family home (it’s no extra cost). It isn’t the time to put her in the shed with a sleeping bag and a tin of beans. It’s not the time to push her to find work. You don’t set a sinking ship on fire.

I assume therefore that you’re funding her life. Stop that right now. If she wants anything, she has to pay for it. Then she’ll have to get a job of some kind and get somewhat of a reality check.

All the kids I know of that age have part time jobs.

You’re spoiling her. Many 16 years olds manage to work part time and study.

Agreed. I work with looked after children and this is not an unfamiliar story. Too complex for short posts, I’d get specialist advice on this.

Thinking of you OP I have a DS in a similar position and it breaks my heart. He dropped out of his college course after the first year and now just stays in his bedroom most of the time. He hasn’t got a job and is not in education, just hoping he grows out of it. He has got an autism diagnosis but doesn’t accept it. I really hope they turn a corner. Doing all that I can to support him but I can’t make a 6ft2 teenager get a job if he won’t do it and has said he hated both school and college. No friends anymore either. Sending a big hug x

I have a friend whose son was very similar. He had 1 GCSE but a very low grade and felt that the benefit system would look after him. He had friends whose dads didn't work and they seemed to do okay - my friend saw them at school events and said that they were dressed in brands etc and she suspected something dodgy led to them affording those things because of the way they behaved and they didn't work and were literally dripping in brands/jewellery/regular holidays etc.

What she ended up doing was bringing back the age old concept of pocket money.
He wanted his phone the next day? He had to sort the dishwasher the night before.
He was provided with a packed lunch daily for school, bus money, any extra spending money he had to earn it. At minimum wage which at the time was about a tenner an hour. No 16 year old wants to pull out a scabby ham sandwich at school so he would do a couple of hours at weekend so he could afford lunchs, more if he was going out. They got him used to the idea of trading time for money.
They offered him a cash 'bonus' if he passed his resits (yes, they bribed him essentially). They offered him a bigger one if he got a certain level on an apprenticeship (only paid at the end) and topped up the apprenticeship rubbish wage to the living wage for him.

He's not got the ideal work ethic, but he has a trade and is carrying on with his apprenticeship currently. I think the topping up helps. He's turned his future around. They've said they aren't going to float him once his apprenticeship ends so basically he'll need to get a job.

If you've got the means to do it, then use bribery. Why not!

Tbh, I think the worst thing to do would be hostile to the idea. Keep sweet. Your daughter needs to fall flat on her face when reality bites her HARD and when it does, she needs to feel there are no barriers to her coming back home (or to sanity) where you can start building some realistic expectations.
I live in East London btw, local authority funding is on an absolute knife-edge. I'm not saying there aren't people who game the system but I'm sure it's not a walkover

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth I know nothing about adoption and its potential effects, but this post says to me that your DD is trying to make herself very small and leave a tiny footprint with you. She doesn’t want new stuff, she makes few material demands. She wants to move out at 18. It’s as if she’s trying to ensure that she “owes you” as little as possible before she moves on the minute she’s 18 (in the way that children in care have placements and support removed at 18).

It’s as if she’s a guest trying hard not to put people out and ensure she’s not too beholden. Like being taken out for dinner and making sure you order the cheapest things on the menu and only drink tap water (and of course this old hockey stick is fine for me).

It’s just a thought amongst many you’ve had here. But I’d be inclined to think more carefully about the posters suggesting therapy than the ones suggesting she should experience the cold hard facts of her “desired” lifestyle and suggesting she’s spoilt.

Was there any suggestion of drug or alcohol use by her birth mother when she was pregnant? There are so many potential things around that effect how young people process risk /
consequences etc especially in their teenage years linked to this.

She’s adopted so obviously doesn’t live with her birth family. These two friends of hers also don’t live with their birth families. She feels a connection to them because of this and is following their lead even if they aren’t deliberately encouraging her to (though they may well be doing that as well).

i think you should read the post directly below yours from a professional who understands ND.

I know it feels like everyone is being diagnosed but even if only the estimated 10% of population were ND that is a huge number of people. 3% of the population are gay as a comparison.

Equally, people tend to post when there are problems. No one comes on mumsnet to say ‘my neurotypical child did their homework and tidied their room without me asking today’. Very often, the answer to difficult behaviour will be that there is some kind of neurodiversity. And that will be the correct call.

I think we are only really identifying ND in the last few years. My DC would never have been as AuDHD a few years ago. So there is likely to be huge backlog of people who were never diagnosed in childhood. That’s why it looks like there’s such an explosion in numbers.

Is this for real ?

What do her siblings say about it? They might have a helpful perspective/knowledge. Are they the same or are they doing better at school? It seems fairly clear that her issues are nor just about laziness (eg playing sports),and its not clear that even if she struggled/tried really hard she could do better (panicking when asked the time.) Definitely time for some more focused professional input if you can get it, for possible brain damage (was she shaken as a baby? She may have been and no one knew) or a form of dyslexia etc. She sounds quite innocent and not someone who can see through what her friends are saying to the reality of their lives. If she goes I can see her learning some hard lessons, some of which are likely to be of sexual exploitation. I think most women learn these lessons at some point in their lives, one way or another, with relationships gone sour, one night stands and sexual assault. A few get stuck. But her friends might not be in the same position themselves in 2 years time and your daughter will be older too - you have a bit of time in hand. Would it help for you to get to know the friends better yourself, so you can assess the situation, and them better?

Thank you. And sending a big hug back. It's a lot harder than they think, isn't it, and in so many different ways? I hope that your DS finds his path.

I saw a thread on here recently about a woman who had grown up in a council flat with a single mum not working, she wanted to work hard did so well at school and worked hard at uni and has a really tough corporate job, and now works full time AND does all the SAHM stuff and lives in a very similar ex council flat that her mum got (funded) … I wonder if you dd read a similar thread

@Fizzy89 : He wanted his phone the next day? He had to sort the dishwasher the night before.
He was provided with a packed lunch daily for school, bus money, any extra spending money he had to earn it. At minimum wage which at the time was about a tenner an hour. No 16 year old wants to pull out a scabby ham sandwich at school so he would do a couple of hours at weekend so he could afford lunchs, more if he was going out. They got him used to the idea of trading time for money.

Thank you. That is really helpful.

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth The above reaction & comment makes me think that although she can read & write + speaks in an articulate manner, she might have some form of learning difficulty or neurodivergence that she might be masking. I know her general attitude to work comes across as being entitled but it might actually be part of her masking. Alternatively or additionally might have low self steam if she feels that she’s not clever &/or is letting you down. Has the school explored or recommended that you get her assessed for e.g. dyslexia or ADD (ADHD without hyperactivity)?

If she’s not interested in education, have you explored any vocational training based on her interests? e.g. hairdressing, beauty treatments, etc.

Another thing to advise her is that there’s no guarantee that she’ll find someone to maintain her & if she does, there’s no guarantee that she’ll be happy. Money can’t buy love or happiness. It is therefore important to be financially independent.

As other people have said, she won’t be able to move in with her friends (at least not legally). Sounds like her friends don’t realise that their supports stops completely at 18. After that, although they may be able to continue claiming benefits, they’ll be expected to actively look for a job like everybody else.
https://www.support-for-care-leavers.education.gov.uk/en/support-if-youre-18-to-24

BTW, sounds like you’re doing an amazing job in raising & guiding her & her siblings.

No. None at all. That isn't the birth mum's story.