To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

For my daughter, we had to set sttong boundaries so she learnt how much things cost and how far money went on a budget. So we decided rather than pay for her clothes/ phone etc we have her a monthly allowance which was dependant on her school reports, behaviour and completing household chores. If she did nothing she earns nothing (to the point her phone contract hot cancelled) She soon realised nothing is free.
It took 6 months for a turn around. He even realised that when she got good grades we gave bonuses also extra for extra chores.

Maybe a change to what she gets snd when is needed show her things need earning...
Including respect.

Op I used to work with adoption social workers. Do you know much about what happened in her early life ? E.g. was it neglect /abuse etc? The first 3 years are important for a child's development and can impact their relationship for the rest of their lives (it's called the NSPCC's 1001 days theory ) and can cause attachment disorders too. Please please get some advice from people (I was admin not a social worker) who have experience in this.

I was thinking that too! They employ students that are needing the job to pay for their studies to make sure they turn up to the jobs 😂

Cut off her pocket money and tell her time to get a job. She needs to learn that money isn't something that she gets easily. Maybe working will knock some sense into her.

Ps ..learning disability is highly genetic ..sounds like asd /adhd if socially naive .

Children who are adopted have usually experienced some degree of early trauma, and that can have huge implications for them as they grow up particularly in the teenage years when everything gets more intense. I’d really suggest speaking to your adoption agency, as they should have a post-adoption support service and may be able to link her in with specialist support or youth workers who understand these issues.

It’s also worth contacting your local council’s Early Help team within children’s social services they can offer very good, targeted support that’s specific to her as an individual and to your family situation.

I really hope she’s OK and manages to get refocused, but behaviour like this is usually a sign that something deeper is going on. These professionals can support both her and you to understand what’s behind it and how best to help her.

she sounds like a lovely girl with crazy ideas. She’ll probably grow up over the next 2 years and none of this will ever happen. All you can do is smile, encourage her, reward her for successes and perhaps a good idea would be to encourage a new hobby and some positive friendships? Anything she is interested in that might lead to studies? Talk and support , being 16 is confusing! She might meet a nice boy with more aspirations than her dodgy friend. Can you do some
research to ensure she not being groomed by whoever this is, has she actually spoken to this girl via video call? How does she know her?

I think your DD has an underlying condition. So much of our being is nature, not nurture. As much as we’d like to think we can mould people with nurture, I think nature often hinders this.
By nature I mean her genetic make-up, her brain wiring. By nurture I mean the example you set and the values you instill.

if she is adopted, her genetic make-up suggests her birth parents had mental health issues or a condition such as ADHD or BPD which meant they couldn’t look after a baby. The hereditary aspect of these things is proven, but we are unsure of how likely it is we inherit them.

i am really sorry you’re going through this. Her lack of attaining educational qualifications in spite of a loving home and positive atmosphere to support her (and I’m guessing a good school) suggests she has severe ADHD and ODD. This will also play out as maturity and lack of ability to plan due to poor executive functioning.

i think you need to look for some professional help from a child psychologist or psychiatrist

There are several things going on here, which you are more than aware of.

I‘d second proper, specialist therapy for her. Something is causing this refusal, and her nervous system sounds shot. Was there a time when she was willing to try new or challenging things?

I also wonder if a) you can sit her (and maybe her sibling/s) down and show them how much it costs to buy and run a house? Get them looking on Rightmove, show them your utility/car/petrol bills etc.

I also wonder if Citizens‘ Advice would be willing to talk to her about benefits/UC and waiting lists for council/ social housing? And DWP etc expectations? As that’s her plan. It may give her a reality check. But as it‘s possible she‘ll dig her heels in (as that’s what some people with hurt nervous systems do), follow it up with a plan to show her what she can do. Maybe she could volunteer at a foodbank/ refuge. Maybe she could do work experience in the trades - a job that’s not desk based. Maybe in a care home - sometimes looking after someone else grows your confidence and brings you out of yourself.

Any further training and education can come later - it sounds as if you‘d be able to enable her to do that at a later date? FWIW, two young relatives were registered on college courses until 18 but never went - they got minimum wage jobs at 16 and started working full time. Not necessarily a solution, but it is definitely possible.

The Prince‘s Trust offer a number of programmes for stuck young people.

All the best to you and her.

I think she really needs some volunteering experience - to be exposed to different people, their situations, and to understand how choices can affect your life. The hope is it would introduce some perspective, but it might also help her to see roles she actually would enjoy. You could start small with walking a neighbour's dog, helping out with a local fete stand, the scouts, reading with children in the local school etc. I would also nurture her hobbies more - encouraging more time with others offline.

It does seem she may be limiting her ambitions out of fear - though she might not be able to identify it herself. Like a kind of 'I reject this first so I cannot be rejected' situation, which can come from attachment issues. She's told you you don't understand why she finds things hard, so definitely find a paid psychotherapist (try a few if necessary) who she feels will understand her.

As an aside I had a teenage fling with a boy who was on a resit course at college, who had never 'tried hard' in school. He managed to get the GCSE passes needed and worked night shifts at a supermarket after leaving. He was happy to be earning but gained no ambition during college, and had no desires to leave the town he grew up in. He was content with his lot and no conversations would change that. Some people are just like that.

I have many criticisms of our experience with social services, but the LA that were placing DD and her siblings did a brilliant job of making sure we were well informed of everything that happened and we met personally with everyone that had been involved in their care from the midwife that assisted at their birth, to their GP, their nursery teachers, and all the different elements of social services.

One of my closest friends when growing up had MH issues as a young teen, to the point of not leaving her home for years. Her life was online, she met a boy the same age on the internet, was totally open with her parents about it all. Hewas going to rescue her, they had plans to marry, live together and run off into the sunset etc. This went on for several years over MS chat and video calls as he lived in Scotland and she was down south. He was practically family by the time they actually met (with parents). He finally visited, they spent a few hours together, she realised he was a total knob and that was the end of that. YEARS it went on and she said she couldn't stand him after the first 10 minutes 😂

I guess what I'm trying to say is it'll likely amount to nothing, and creating these plans are most likely fantasy. Strongly encouraging or discouraging is likely to prove problematic. Discourage and she'll want to do it more, encourage and when it goes tits up she'll blame you and you'll have responsibility. Try to remain interested, active but ultimately neutral.

A big red flag in your OP is the lack of accountability she's had, and the zero repercussions of letting her studies slide. How can she be expected to strive academically when she's not been taught the importance of it? You've also said a few passive comments including it being impossible to monitor teens messages/online. It's not impossible, it's your job as a parent. She is a child. You're her parent. She needs you to parent her.

I'm going to say this and I'm not saying it's not worth looking in to but every thread any one starts on MN nowadays no matter what the issue is whether it's a teenager that doesn't have ambition, a cheating husband, a partner that doesn't want a kid or doesn't want to get married, if a stepchild doesn't have a close relationship with step siblings etc, people will always start posting that it's ND! It's Autism! It's ADHD! It's like people can't do a single thing these days without someone claiming it's ND!

We are talking about a teenager who has never had to stand fully on her own two feet and be money savvy yet and she's being influenced by someone who is sat on benefits and filling her head with nonsense that they'll live together, screw the benefits system together and have a great life of not working. That's a teenager without life experience being influenced by the wrong sort of person.

It's ok people on the internet telling everyone that they are all ND and should all get diagnosed but this is why some areas have waiting lists of years for assessments because everyone wants to blame everything on being ND.

I rarely if ever respond to posts on Mumsnet but have chosen to do so here because I’m a Child & Adolescent Psychotherapist specialising in neurodivergence in children who are adopted or fostered, and I wanted to say that your daughter shows every sign of being NDDT — neurodivergent and developmentally traumatised, the group I have specialised in working with for over a decade. I say this because everything you describe about her I have seen in other young people of her age who are adopted and also neurodivergent. Everyone in adoption community (social workers, therapists, and so on) focuses exclusively on attachment and trauma, when neurodivergence is so prevalent — at least 3 times more likely to be autistic, and way higher to be ADHD. Your daughter shows every sign of ADHD (the ADD variant but they are both now under the same ADHD umbrella name), and potentially AuDHD. It is so often missed in girls, and near universally missed in adopted or fostered girls.
My suggestions would be:
—Look into the criteria for ADHD and see if they fit your daughter whilst bearing in mind the original ADHD assessment criteria were built around birth family boys. It does present so very differently
—speak to your daughter about her views on the possibility of ADHD
—If so, consider requesting from your GP a referral to a Right to Choose ADHD assessment provider, see https://adhduk.co.uk/right-to-choose/ for details
—Seek out someone who understands the overlap of developmental trauma and neurodivergence, who can help you understand the particular challenges your daughter faces and how to respond to them. I cannot offer anything as my books are full and I’m not in your area, but I do this sort of work under the ASGSF and I am hopeful there are others who can offer the same
—Hold in mind that the combination of the above can result in a developmental age that is way below chronological age, or even emotional age, and as such your daughter will likely need many more years beyond 18 to understand all that you are trying to tell her. Yet at 18 she can and very likely will carry out her plans — you can’t stop her and it would be foolhardy to try, as all that would be achieved is a breakdown in her relationship with you. Instead you have to be the ones to pick up the pieces when it does go wrong, to be there for her without judgement or any indication to her that you want to say ‘I told you so’ no matter how strong that desire is… she will instead need you to put the pieces back together even though it is likely she will carry on with her plans and need this multiple times. If she is ADHD she will have a strong desire to learn things herself without anyone telling her. It is a curse and a blessing to need to learn things first hand, the hard way.
I’m writing this because I’ve spent so many years advocating for this lost group — those whose neurodivergence has been missed because there has always been such a focus on developmental trauma. It isn’t either / or, it’s both for this group but their needs and understanding have been neglected for too long. I don’t spend very much time here on Mumsnet but please feel free to contact me separately if that would help. And if I am completely wrong and your daughter does not fit any of the criteria, then please accept my apologies. Perhaps instead someone else reading this will benefit from thinking about ND in their own adopted or fostered child or young person.

Sorry don’t know if this has been suggested already, but has she been assessed for ADHD? A few things you say about her sound like my friend who has a diagnosis and medication for it. Good luck x

Haven't rtft but McDonald's is not an easy job - I worked there a long time ago and about 25% of new starters quit on day 1!

How offensive and ignorant your commentary on intelligence is. Not all adopted children are unintelligent. It is attitudes like yours that caused considerable emotional damage to individuals like myself. Fortunately for me it has provided me with a unique insight and drive for my PhD research. I was the child written off by individuals such as yourself. I was kept in the bottom sets and told I was not worth educating, despite having a thirst for learning and knowledge (due to being an adopted child). I left school with no GCSE’s. I returned to education as a young adult and achieved equivalent to 3 A-Levels grade A/B within 12 months. Went on to achieve degree, masters and now PhD.

But what if it is and she spends years without a diagnosis? It sounds like the OP could afford to go privately. I says it because the things OP describes are huge red flags.

Thank God somebody said it. I am adopted but I don't owe anyone anything. And either does this girl. You have to realise that no matter what you say the fact is in almost all cases the actual child is not the wanted child. I can relate to her. But hang in there, she will be okay. But definitely make sure this friend is who they say they are and send her to the doctor on her own so she will maybe be more honest about her need for contraception etc.

This. Though with the addition of:
-ADHD is understood to be 70-80% genetically heritable (nature), with a larger environmental (nurture) component than autism
-The environmental component (nurture) will be highly impacted in the first 3 years i.e. pre-adoption
-ND diagnoses in the child increase the likelihood of childhood maltreatment i.e. the reasons they are removed from birth families. The more diagnoses a child has, the greater the risk of maltreatment. (Note this only covers those whose ND is diagnosed but is a reason for the much higher levels of ND in adopted and fostered children and young people)
-Childhood maltreatment does not increase the likelihood of ND of any sort being diagnosed. In other words, trauma does not cause neurodivergence — the genetics have to be there first for the trauma to contribute to the possibility of ADHD. Autism does not have the same nurture component and is almost exclusively nature/inherited

Lots of suggestions here are really great, but won’t help your daughter if she doesn’t understand the basics e.g. has no concept of money (how it is generated, how to earn it, how our society functions around it).

You probably are right, my brother has just been diagnosed as ADHD at the age of 51 and has had the hallmarks of it all his life. He has been lucky to get his diagnosis already because when he first went to his GP several months ago he was told it could be an 8 year waiting list for assessment. He's never stopped him being talented and having a career but he's self employed and very disorganised. He is waiting for his first prescription of meds. I think people just need to lay off posting it on every thread on MN because it doesn't help those that do need to get diagnosed if everybody wants to diagnosed.

The fact she thinks she can live off benefits or get a job at McDonald's is laughable and in her current situation she wouldn't even get an interview at McDonald's. I would call her bluff, let her try and live this 'easy' life squatting etc and see how she gets on! In the meantime, cut her pocket money, clothes allowance etc. some kids do have an idealistic view at 16 and if she has been brought up in normal 'privilege' I'd bet my arse she won't last long. This seems to be a thing just now but these kids will grow up and think fuck! Hard to advise on the college thing because obvs you can't force her but at least she could go back and try again. In an ideal world most of us would love not to do the work drudge but the majority of us actually enjoy it. Maybe she will see this as she gets older. This trend of choosing not to work is bonkers to me as I grew up late 70s/early 80s and work was so precious to us as it was hard to find a job. Be firm but not dismissive. I'm.nkt sure it has anything to do with her being adopted though as I have heard so many kids these days thinking this is the answer. ❤️

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth Let her go now. If the grass is so green and life is so easy? Let her try it. She'll quickly learn how life really isn't as easy as she thinks.

McDonald's won't and if they do they'd soon sack her because it's damn hard work and you can't be lazy. (Worked for them for ten years)

I would like to echo the message from the mental nurse who strongly suggested taking some proactive steps to better support your daughter. I am a psychotherapist and also read a much more complex and concerning story than just the one about a teenager with unrealistic ambitions. I wonder for instance about your daughter’s reply when she says - you don’t understand because you are not me - it feels to me like something very important has been missed here. Being adopted unavoidably connects with an experience of rejection and abandonment, a deep relational trauma, often and sadly paired with others. I would want to explore how this trauma is showing up for your daughter, especially at a time when she is working on finding her identity.
I hope you can find the support you need.