To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

May be worth re-visiting what sort of contact she wants with birth relatives and seeing if she's in contact with any of them via Facebook etc.

Qualifications that are assessed as you go along rather than by exams might work better for her but you need to explore why she's so scared of failure.

Yes look at post adoption support services and therapists. Don't dismiss autism and other developmental disorders as possibilities - they can exist at the same time as trauma. You ought to already know if she had foetal alcohol syndrome but worth checking as often social care weren't honest with adopters.

Mrs. Terrybpratchett what right and evidence have you to say thst basically all boils down to being adopted? She was 3 when transferred into her current lifestyle and whilst attachment issues can raise their heads, usually unannounced, there is far more to this problem than having this lable on her.

I know you are being helpful and sorry if I come over as defensive. I just wonder if some of my messages have given the impression DD is living a Paris Hilton lifestyle of designer clothes and extravagent parties, which is absolutely not true.

She is driven to college because we live in a rural location which requires two bus journeys with the connection in a very quiet location, and if the first bus is late there would be a two hour wait for the next bus to college that I would not be happy for her to go through, especially in winter.

I buy Radox shower gel and Tresemé shampoo and conditioner, which are pretty standard brands, and if she wants anything else she buys it out of her pocket money or asks for it for her birthday/Christmas.

She has never visited the friend in London. They have met as they have a mutual friend (which is also how I know she is real) but she has never been to her flat.

Because it's a myth.
There has to be other circumstances (ie health issues/disabilities) to be able to "just live off benefits".

My assumption is that for people with kids the childcare costs get them out of being forced into a lot of minimum wage work and I'm wondering if people who've been claiming a long while are not subject to the same rules because I truly don't get either but it was a depressing visit to the job centre when I went, I was told to write a new CV and take all my skills, experience and qualifications off it - how the hell could progress within a company if I lied about my entire career! How could i even talk to people in a new job if I had to hidey real career history. I never bothered claiming in the end because I wasn't looking to travel to a low wage admin job 90 minutes away! I'm a H&S practitioner by trade.

There's nothing wrong with working in McDonald's by the way..... 🙄

Yep plus I also think people who've had a few kids have the excuss that getting a low or unskilled job isn't going to pay the bills, childcare costs and food etc

I can tell you McDonald's offers a system where they employ young people without qualifications and sponsor them to study maths and English so getting a job there might not be bad to start with as the youngsters we are talking about are encouraged to work up to management levels.
The reality of the benefit system may be different from what she thinks but it might be that she needs to work that out for herself.To claim you have to sign on fortnightly and prove what you are doing to look for work.
Young people between 18 and 25 are the ones who are hardest hit with sanctions if they don't comply.
The person who she plans to move in with may be in in social housing and monitored by social workers and a community mental health team and that might mean that they are restricted with who can move there so she might find she is penalised that way too.
I work in mental health with young people and it may be worth getting in touch with the princes trust if they are in your area.They are great at motivating young people especially when whatever you say as parents she might take as wrong.
Don't give up on her.The relationship may have fizzled out in 2 years as mental health is hard work and living with someone is a lot different than a long distance relationship.
I hope this helps.
Take care.Its not an easy stage.

You do have 2 years between now and when she is 18 so you have time for her to come round. Is she into getting her nails or lashes done, or going to the gym? Maybe you could suggest training to be a lash/nail tech or a PT and then she could be self employed? Might give her a little bit of oomph to do something at the same time thinking she's "beat" the system by not doing the regular route of college, office job etc.

I accept your point, but evidence suggests that in some ways she is very stupid indeed.
Unless she is perhaps stunningly beautiful, knows how to dress, and how to socialise with all strata of society, she should forget the rich guy plan.
There’s too much competition.
And as somebody else said, rich guys don’t go looking to meet women who live in a slum and work in Macdonalds.

Right, thanks for the update because I understand it a bit better. So your daughter actually isn’t motivated by money or materialism. We also have a child in our home who is like this - they are neurodivergent. They don’t make friends easily either. Our child far prefers an ‘online’ life’ which facilitates low effort on motivation. Our child wants to go to university because they idolize an older sibling who followed this path, but there is no real desire for its own sake. It’s mirroring. When we discuss finances about university it is clear they have no clue how they will manage (and seem unfazed yet not grabby or entitled). Are you sure your daughter is not neurodivergent? The stubbornness you keep talking about seems to overlook the immaturity in terms of money or what being a young adult is for peers. Our child is definitely ‘sheltered’ due to developmental delay in social skills because of neurodivergence.

I want to add to this. My daughter had a similar lifestyle to yours and seemingly out of nowhere went off the rails at 14. Gravitated towards trouble, self-harm, suicide attempts, drugs, psychosis. One minute it was violins and teddy bears and the next it was rehab and expulsion from school. She was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (EUPD) and has been in both therapy and under psychiatric care ever since. Since the diagnosis and being prescribed anti-psychotics the worst of the self-harm/suicide attempts/drug taking has stopped but she still has not gone back onto a "normal" pathway in terms of education/career and she still seeks out less conventional friends, clothes, hobbies etc. A lot of her early behaviour was hidden from us, so she was appearing as "not vaping, smoking, drinking" - a quite plausible facade but the reality was very different.

My point is really to echo the nurse here, that you should probably not treat this as adolescent fantasy and take a deeper look at what's going on here with a psychologist. If it turns out that she's just being creative then great! But otherwise you'll have caught her hopefully in time.

I was a bit of a spoilt brat at 16. So was my hubby. Both from well off backgrounds. Both had generous allowances. I decided I would go to uni because I'd get a good student loan and could have a flat with my then boyfriend. We had a very sharp realisations of reality! But! Was the making of us. Realised how nice a life we had had and worked hard at uni and went onto do education beyond that and now have a similar life to our parents. We are raising our kids a bit different though, we pay for everything they need, but we expect them to work to earn pocket money to pay for birthday and Christmas gifts for each other, spending money for holidays etc. They have also, from a very very young age, had to make dinner once a week (obviously supervised when young) with a budget and /or a time restraint and must be healthy. They have a pet each to teach them responsibility too. Just build in what we can. Maybe you could start something?

She could get a job in McDonald’s now, but it’s damned hard work and not that easy to get! No advice sorry big hugs x

Agree, there will be trauma x

I think we have tried to walk a tightrope, of recognising that our children are who they are, which includes taking into account their biology and their life histories, and we have made absolutely clear to them that there is no expectation that they will tread the path we did. With respect to them, we know they cannot.

However, at the same time as a parent you do hope that with your help they will grow beyond what their biological parents achieved, because you have to think that all the love and opportunities you are providing will count for something. So we have also tried to show them that they could be a teaching assistant, or a train driver, or work in a shop, or join the army, and those are all good options if that is what they want to do.

My local jobcentre is honestly how I described it, I think maybe they do vary as I've seen posts on the interview from others whose local JCs are just as rigourous as mine. Plus labour are saying they are going stop adolescents from sitting around being economically inactive. Didn't they raise the benefits age higher too to stop teenagers going on benefits as a lifestyle choice from the outset? I was genuinely told I had to attend my JC every week in person and that's me as a 45 year old professional who was made redundant through no fault of my own!

check out this “friend “ using a private detective or ask the police for help. If she’s being groomed what you’re describing is classic.

What I discovered, when my daughter was groomed by a 47 year old man at age 18, is that you legally and physically cannot do anything once they reach 18.

Its terrifying but no matter how vulnerable or naive, all the pleading in the world won't get anywhere. No authority will help you or even check her safety.

My experience taught me that the only thing I could do was stay as close in touch and supportive as possible and hope that she would come to her senses. Fortunately, she did, before he managed to get her hooked on drugs or worse. My greatest fear was that she would get pregnant and wed be stuck with him for life as "the father".

It was absolutely heartbreaking. We had no idea of her whereabouts, or what had happened to her. If he had snatched her phone away, she could have bundled her into the back of a van and trafficked her elsewhere. Fortunately the contact with her younger sister kept her in our orbit long enough to keep an eye out for her welfare by phone.

She returned after three or four weeks, agreeing to go to her aunt's house as a halfway stage.

Teenage rebellion is very strong. They won't be told. They have to make through own mistakes and learn. Other cultures (non-Western) keep a closer grip on their young people, but our society and laws in the UK positively enable groomers to operate. I'm not saying your daughter is being groomed, but I'd be wary and possibly try to check this online dialogue isn't connected to any wider network. The main thing would be to check her safety.

Even better!
Apologies responded on the wrong response :-(

I'd say that the first thing to do is for you to take DD to visit her friend and get to know her soon-to-be new home. Obviously, you'll need to book a nice hotel for yourselves as I'm sure the friend doesn't have endless space, but DD can stay over and find out how comfortable it is living in a flat on benefits. You can go out and catch a show with younger DD and older DD can have a lesson in budget cookery with her friend. Super Noodles and baked beans anyone? Maybe in the morning you can book some appointments to view some other 2 bed flats which would be within the threshold for housing benefit in the area.

Make encouraging statements like, "Isn't this one just lovely? We can get you a nice picture to cover the mouldy patch over there, and the smell isn't too bad when you get used to it."

What was her childhood like with you? Has she ever had to do chores or help around the house or with her siblings? Is there a government agency or charity you could reach out to - given that she’s adopted?

I’d be tempted to press her to get a job now or volunteer at the Food Bank or little shop and curtail any time with her friend in the strictest way possible. That friend probably thinks of your DD as a cow she can milk given your affluence.

@independentfriend: You ought to already know if she had foetal alcohol syndrome but worth checking as often social care weren't honest with adopters

I don't want to discuss the circumstances of DD's adoption but I will say I am confident there is no FAS. There was definitely alcohol in the house but it was not the birth mum who was consuming it (quite the opposite), and I don't think she even drank when she was not pregnant. We also know other adopters who have children with FAS and we are all confident that this is not something our DCs need to contend with.

I agree with the comment re adoption making things different. Depending on the circumstances around why she was put up for adoption there is likely some kind of trauma and attachment issues going on. Actual attachment disorder requires the neurological pathways in the brain. Traits can be similar to those of autism and adhd. These can’t be h done. She needs to be taught strategies which she will likes also struggle with.

I had a training day on attachment disorder as a send teacher and I was really shocked to how much impact it can have on a person long term. Has she had any kid of diagnosis and support through education??

I think she needs some kind of specialist support and attachment counselling specific to her needs from a trauma informed professional.

Also re benefits. From your description of your lifestyle you sound like the type of parents who may have out savings into accounts which might mature when she is 18. If she has any more than £16k in her name then she won’t qualify for benefits. If she doesn’t have savings then her benefits won’t be much and she would have to attend regular job search meetings and forced to work various jobs or have benefits stopped. It sounds like the friend may have additional disability benefit due to her mental health and may not be expected to work. But hard to know.

OP this is a real worry for you. I do feel at this age they have a romanticised view of life and get a big shock when reality sets in.