To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

Your daughter sounds like me at 16. My dream was to travel, and that was it. I didn't want a career, just whatever menial job to fund a lifestyle. I didn't do my GCSEs, I went on a 18 to 30s package with a mate to the med the week study leave began (at 16 this was allowed in the 90's with parental permission which we forged). Stuck around for the summer and found accommodation funded by scouting for the bars. It was wild, but obviously things were very different then, and you grew up faster. My mum was in bits, but she knew where I was. I did come back after the season and found work at home, never went back into education but I did travel a lot, until my late 20s, backpacking mostly and volunteering. I ended up back in my home town late 20s and settled into a civil service role that's not too stressful, pay is OK and it's secure. I have a happy little family and am satisfied with my life. I realise the risk I took and am grateful for what I've got. I too was adopted at 9 months and see a similar pattern in others who have been there, I think it was about finding myself, adopted people often feel they have to bend who they are to fit in and even if it makes all the sense in the world to follow the rules, some of us feel a very strong urge to rebel. In my teens, 'sticking it to the man' and rejecting education was part of that. The silly dream worked out for me in the end and I dont regret it but I've been lucky. I know it's a bit different, but the posters mentioning the adoption are right. You need professional adoption support if she is hell bent on this in a years time. My mum would say let her get on with it, be there for support. I suppose that's all you can really do, adopted or not really. Hope it works out for all of you.

Would it be possible to speak to, or ask for advice from adoption authorities, about this child?

You need to find out whether she is doing Functional GCSEs or regular so you can support her with the curriculum.
You are aware she can have 3 years at college? You seem concerned she isn't doing any type of vocational subject.
Generally with resits students do 1 year of the resists combined with a Level 1 course and then 2 years afterwards doing a regular course (so 3 years in total).
You also seem to not totally understand the rule of being in education or an apprenticeship until 18.
It actually includes "training" which doesn't mean an official apprenticeship but an ordinary job that has training as part of it (which pretty much all jobs do as for new starters).
She CAN go and get a job now if someone is willing to employ her.

This has nothing to do with nature versus nurture.

Being adopted is trauma, being raised with money doesn’t erase that.

Adoptees have different brain chemistry from the separation.

It’s not something a nice home erases.

These kind of statements perpetuate myths around adoptees.

Science says otherwise.

Hi again, it does seem like she's fallen through the cracks somewhat in education because she is articulate and speaks well.

I have one of those. They did get a few GCSEs and other level 2 quals but not many. They have severe ADHD , Autism and EUPD though.

Unlike your daughter they resisted any support from us in terms of homework etc.

We are a few years ahead of you and my child is currently a NEET. In terms of genetics, their birth mum holds down a job but I dont know about birth dad.

We live in a different part of the UK where education is not compulsory after 16. I would encourage her to get as much out of this course as she can, because maths and English are the key quals.

FWIW I'm adopted and I've got PhD, but my birth family are not like the typical ones these days.

I think the rise of these ensuite student HMOs have in part led to the assumption that when you leave home your place will be the same or better than your parents house. Maybe your daughter is thinking along the lines of this? If you've got the money I'm sure there is a list. But she doesn't have the money.

When I left home student houses were nothing like home. In one, five of us shared a bathroom.

I lived in social housing with a dependent child and there was no list. I had a choice of two.

I would be tempted to log onto the council's portal and let her try and bid on property as a single person so she can see how hard it is and what is available.

Does she still have a social worker? Maybe someone who can have a chat about the realities. She wouldn't be able to claim benefits long term (the benefits system is changing and making it harder for under 24 year olds to claim)
At the moment I'd leave her to get on with things but stop making things so easy. It's very easy for privileged to become entitled. My ds has lived in rented since 18, he works full time and prefers it to living at home, he comes and visits and knows if circumstances changed theres a room here, but we don't help out with the usual cost of living stuff, so he's learnt that if you spend all your wages on takeaways you're going to be walking to work and living on beans on toast.
There's not much 'wrong' with her plan though she'll struggle to avoid work or training once claiming universal credit. The friend will have funding coming in from the local authority that your daughter isn't eligible for (friend would be receiving support in future as a 'care leaver')
Yes, it grates that she appears to be throwing away opportunities but unfortunately this age group do that.

The bit about moving in with these friends won't work.

Leaving aside that these seem chaotic people and they are not necessarily going to be in the exact same situation as they are now, in two years time.

Anyway. There's two girls in a council flat, yes? And your DD plans to join them? This is going to cause problems, it's not as simple as move in and claim benefits.

If this is a one bedroom flat then I presume these girls are a couple. The LL won't allow OP to move in because that will create overcrowding. A one bedroom flat is for two people (plus maybe a baby, other DC would be overcrowding but allowed to stay because LL can't prevent people having DC. They can prevent new adults being added to the tenancy). Without being on the tenancy and having a tenancy agreement, DD won't be able to claim UC housing costs element. BUT. If she's claiming other UC elements then DWP will know she's living there and they'll slash the other girls housing costs element, because there's now another adult in the property so the girl-couple is only liable for half the rent now. They'll either expect DD to pay the other half or they'll kick her out. She'll also be expected to pay towards the other bills too. Meaning she'll have very little money left for food and travel even, never mind socialising. And she'll be sleeping in the living room, an experience which is going to get very old very quickly, for all of them.

If this is a two bedroom flat and these girls are housemates, OP will be allowed to move in by the LL, because the flat is for 3 or 4 people. She'll be liable for 1/3 of the rent and, if unemployed, all of them can claim UC housing costs to pay their third. BUT. OP isn't ill like they are, so she'll be expected to look for work, spending 35hrs a week job searching and documenting her efforts, taking any job she's offered or face sanctioning (money reduced).

I expect at some point they may all be investigated by DWP. Because 3 adults living in a two bedroom flat is going to look like two of them are in a couple. It's going to be hard to prove they're not a couple if they're going everywhere together as besties and doing everything together.

DWP don't want to pay out 3x single UC rates if they should only be paying 1x single and 1x couple rates.

They also don't want to be paying for someone who's partner (your DD) has a job (she'll eventually be pushed into one by JC) and should be supporting them.

Getting onto sickness benefits is hard. When these girls learn that one of them is at risk of losing their UC (and having to jump through the hoops all over again when DD loses her job), your DD is likely to be told to leave instantly. She's also not going to want to be breadwinner to her friend who she's not in a relationship with anyway but just can't prove it.

So what I'm saying is her plan is nonsense and likely to last a matter of weeks, even if she goes ahead with it.

In terms of driving her there if she does go, at least then you'd know the address.

Some have mentioned pregnancy and contraception. Getting pregnant won't fix the UC situation. You only get two years then have to find a job and the child goes to daycare. A baby isn't the meal ticket it used to be. Although it will get you on the list for a council flat.

If you do mention contraception, please don't do it from a place of acting like she'll definitely be having sex soon if she isn't already.

I had a parent who was like that, right from the day they first saw me casually talking to a boy from my street (attended a girls school) and I can tell you it was one of the many nails in the coffin of our relationship. It was insulting and mortifying to have a parent assuming I was sexually active at 15 when is never been on a date or kissed anyone even, and trying to persuade me onto contraception.

Parent's attitude contributed to the societal pressure and peer pressure I felt to have sex before I was ready and to take hormonal contraception I didn't want (because when I got a boyfriend he was a dickhead who'd "forget" to use condoms and I'd had it drummed into me it was my responsibility not to get pregnant, telling him to get lost then didn't enter my mind, my life was all about doing what others wanted me to do and the development of that mentality started with my parents).

It would have helped me enormously if everyone around me wasn't expecting me to have sex and acting like it was inevitable it would be happening now. So please be careful how you approach any such conversations.

At 16 she'll have had sex education in school and will be aware of contraception options and family planning clinics etc anyway.

I agree with those who are saying she doesn't care about qualifications at all because the jobs she says she'll do "at most", she's simply acknowledging that those are the type of jobs unqualified no-hopers are pushed into by JC schemes. She's not saying she wants those jobs, she doesn't. As far as she's concerned - if they won't employ her, that's great! She could even be failing exams deliberately to make herself less employable, since she says she doesn't want to work.

She doesn't think she's going to get a job at McDonald's. She thinks she's going to avoid getting a job at McDonald's as long as possible and quit as soon as she's able to (with a little savings I guess, to tide her over the sanction period where you can't claim UC if you quit). Then she'll claim UC again.

This might be too simplistic but have you tried a gym membership for her?

Lots of “cool kids” at the gym who wouldn’t want to be on a sports team etc. Exercise helps with emotions, hormones etc. Try and find one with teenage times, group classes etc.

And if you pick one with a bar/restaurant etc she might well see other young people having a laugh at work and think that might suit her.

It's not applied strictly. It's the child's responsibility rather than the parents and only affects child benefit and universal credit.

But I'm sure the acronym neet stand for education, employment and training.

You could do a hybrid combo of home based learning plus paid employment - someone mentioned up-thread about getting a tutor. My daughter has a lovely student who is so encouraging and someone she looks up to. It has done wonders for her confidence in the subject. Your daughter could work and still sit GCSEs privately to give her more options in the future.

Just sounds like she has been far too spoiled

Thank you. She can stay at college for years if she keeps doing more courses, but at colleges near us Level 1 courses require three grade 2s, so she is doing what they call Entry Level. She can do a Level 1 course next etc.

Thank you for clarifying that she can work now. I had misunderstood the requirement.

I think this is the other, similar thread people re referring to. Definitely worth you both reading each others threads and maybe also connecting via direct message.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5470424-16yr-old-moving-out-what-do-i-need-to-do?page=1

Thank you. To be clear the two friends I mentioned are separate girls both of whom have flats. They are part of the same online friendship group but not together. One of them has invited my DD to move in with her any time but thankfully DD is saying she will wait to 18 (I think she thinks she is not allowed to move out before and I am not dissuading her from that). But I think your advice is still really helpful.

Actually we have had the contraception conversation and DD is fully open to having an implant. She doesn't want kids at this age. We haven't moved forward with that because we didn't want to make her think we thought it was time to be having sex, but we will raise that again.

And you are spot on that her plan is not to work at McDs. It was more "if we have to work we'll get jobs there" but as many have said, that is not an easy option. That said, I think McDs is more shorthand for short term casual work than a specific plan.

I also agree with this.
My dd is now in year 13. So many of the kids at her college were re-sitting maths and/or English and the motivation and ambition for most is zero. They are jusy killing time until they are allowed to leave school.
Add in to that all sorts of mental health issues, neurodiversity and familiy struggles and I can see a whole raft of them drifting off out of school and into a black hole of nothing.
The lifestyle of your own flat, independance and a benefits cheque sounds great compared ot the hard slog of getting exams.
Re-sit school is BORING, she is kicking against it.

But I would also say she is probably scared. Scared of not actually having any exams and what on earth is she supposed to do now? I would really think about what is she good at, what might she be able to do as a job. Forget tradition exams route, what else? What could she get involved in that might be interesting to her.
She could start a music/equine/childcare at a much lower level, and do a basic course from there.

She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing

There's your problem, right there.

I’m sorry but the desire to run away and escape while completely sabotaging your life like that is a red flag for severe depression. The blank piece of paper for an exam with her name on it = cry for help.

I think you need to urgently get her in with a psychologist and psychiatrist.

You appear to be able to afford private healthcare?

Because of people voting right wing since 1979, this is now a plausible lifestyle. After 14 years of tories and brexit, kids have it worse than ever.
Their chances of getting on in life are slimmer than ever. (Unless mammy and daddy have no money worries).
If reform get voted in, your kids lives will be over before they start.FACT.

Hi,

Without going into too much detail - My job requires me to know the ins and outs of all the benefits there are, the rules, eligibility, disallowance, fraud etc many things because I work centrally to all this.

She will not be able to live off of benefits. If she doesn't have a severe disability or vulnerability, then she will he expected to sit in a Job Centre for 35hrs a week - Sometimes less, sometimes more. She will not get a single penny if she doesn't show up. She will not get a single penny if she doesn't accept work for more than 18hrs a week. She will not get anything if she's available to work full-time and doesn't do so. By which case, when she's working FT as a single person everything is deducted from UC at 55p per pound.

I think you need to take some action. She needs to start doing chores in the house and I’d stop any pocket money. A part time job is required to get money. Or she can do jobs for you for money. Maybe discuss jobs she would enjoy e.g working in a nursery or with animals or whatever she is into. Make it clear that even on benefits she would have to show that she is applying for jobs. I am worried for you. She sounds like she ‘ll get herself pregnant foR benefits and that will go horribly wrong as looking after a baby is even harder work. You really need make her realise that all she has is due to your education and your work ethic. I am also worried about this so called friend. Can you speak to a social worker or her teachers for advice or to other families of adopted children. Being adopted might be a bigger part of this than we might realise? Good luck 🤞 My eldest wanted to join the army at 16 and I was so stressed about it but it never came to anyThing. The advice I was given is to go along with it rather than be against it and this worked.

I agree. Go along with it - encourage the living on benefits.

I’m not sure whereabouts in London she’s planning to live, but there are no cheap places in London anymore. And you need a lot more than GCSEs to work at McDonald’s - a decent attitude for starters… as somebody else has said there’s a long way off between 16 and 18 and much can change between now and then. I don’t know if you’re giving her money at the moment maybe she feels a bit entitled so that can stop straight away.

How did she conceived the ideas of living off benefits in a council flat while growing up in a mansion with two working or ? parents

Does she remembers you adopted her

I haven’t read every post so apologies if this has been asked-answered.
the adoption - was it through an agency or LA? With an agency you should have support until she’s 18, but even so contact post-adoption support as an emergency!!
(i’m a fellow adopter)

I would look into paying for psychotherapy for her plus tutoring if she will engage in it - focus on intervention in the here and now.

I wouldn’t be driving her to London or supporting her plan in any way.

I know only too well that it is absolutely impossible to force any child to do something that they don't want to, and once she is 18 you have no control at all.
My eldest DD has rarely worked. She didn't do well at school, though she has some qualifications and she could have done better for herself.

She is now nearly 50, has significant mental health problems (possibly due to drugs) and has lived on benefits for most of her working life due to this disability. She's not had a happy life and is probably not going to have one in future, benefits are not generous even if you get a disability benefit and life can be hard.
I would say that you should do everything that you can to make your DD recognise that there is no guarantee that she will find some gullible man to look after her in the style to which she is accustomed, particularly if she is living in a flat with her "friend" who sounds like every mother's nightmare.
I appreciate that adoption can lead to trauma (my DD has an adopted DD with some problems) so why not try to get help from the adoption services? Their staff could probably get you careers help, psychological therapy and they will doubtless have seen it all before. She may believe that her plans are not great if someone other than you tells her so.