To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

Another one @14HoursToSaveTheEarth to say she needs proper targeted therapy.

DS went through a mental health break when he was 10 and some of what your DD is saying rings with what he did (benefits job etc) and that is without the extra layer of stuff that comes with being adopted

Not sure if this helps but at 16 my DD had many IBFs from very varying backgrounds with many MH issues. They were mostly lovely girls but with a lot of different challenges. We're reasonably well off and she has not wanted for anything but she is ASD and has anorexia and I think she was drawn to them rather than her high achieving, ambitious local friends who loved spending money on clothes and make-up, illicit drinking and other things she didn't have interest in.

4 years on she is loosely in touch with a couple of them but now has a different friendship group and is in recovery from her ED.

She was drawn to the "misfits" (that's not derogatory) and the troubled because her experience to that point had been that she didn't fit in. She needed to find her tribe. She went through various groups till she found it.

Maybe your DD is reacting to not fitting in at school/college. I have no direct experience of adoption but have 2 close friends who have adopted and I know they have specific needs.

I would be trying to listen and understand her, get support from trauma and adoption specialists and not follow the "tough love" advice some have given. My experience is that there's a world of difference between 16 and 18, she's finding herself.

Also I was a lazy, self-absorbed little sh*t at 16 but by 18 I was much better.

Have you ever considered she is autistic? Autism in girls can show very very differently to boys and they hide and cover it up VERY well! Struggling at school while making out she doesnt care and is not making an effort is number one red flag. You saying she’s lazy and can’t be bothered? This is exactly what we’ve heard time and time again about my daughter and she’s been diagnosed with autism and dyslexia and massively struggles with retaining information so she isn’t lazy she just can’t actually hold I formation in her head so pretends she doesn’t care

Even without knowing her background as an adoptee I would have said this sounds like a low confidence/low sef esteem issue. The not even want to try, is likely due to a fear of failure. Knowing that she's adopted I would say this is almost certainly at least part of the issue. Also trying to find her place in the world, Working out where she fits in, etc. Anger at the world...guilt...shame...she desperate needs support to help her work through these feelings. To be able to verbalise them.

I've worked with children/young people from similar backgrounds and the real worry is that if she does follow through on this plan she may end up pregnant young by someone very unsuitable.

I wouldn't actually give the topic too much attention as it has the opportunity to drive a wedge between you.

I would spend the next two years throwing every bit of money I had at this issue. If she is at all willing I would find a child and adult psychotherapist registered with the ACP (not a councellor or more general psychotherapist) and have her in therapy twice weekly. I would also pay for a tutor to help her get passes in her L2 English and maths so that she could progress on to a L2 vocational course at college. I would try and spend as much time with her doing fun things with her as I could...day trips to London, afternoon tea, the theatre, horse riding, sports matches...literally whatever will interest her even vaguely. Just to keep that connection as strong as possible.

(Functional skills English is a lot more accessible than the GCSE.)

I was exactly like this at 16! It's a very normal fantasy to have. How on earth are you supposed to know how the world works at that age?

In fact, in my twenties, I actually did something similar for real - packed in my full time local government job and moved cities to live in a flat share on a minimum wage part-time job in a market. The struggles that came with it (living off rice and soy sauce, trying to score more shifts to make rent) were character-building for me.

I'm now in my later thirties and back working a "grown up" job. I don't regret any of my choices, but there's a time and place for everything.

I think this is very common in adoptions.

My friend adopted a child at age 4. She grew up in a wealthy family with so much love and everything a child could want. At 16 she found her birth family, left home and school and returned to her family of addicts on a very rough estate. She said she felt 'at home' there. My friend tried everything to get her back.

I think your daughter needs therapy, and probably you too. It sounds like she is somehow rejecting her privilege because she feels she doesn't deserve it.

Sorry if I've missed this or if it's way off the mark, OP, but your daughter's struggles and impulsivity really remind me of a teenager I know with foetal alcohol syndrome, which in the case of the young woman I know has made her passage through education much rockier and affected her ability to make long-term decisions.

Glad you mentioned the adoption. Think she needs to find a therapist and ideally also some decent role models whose lifestyle she respects. Maybe she feels a bit like a cuckoo who doesn't fit; she is choosing a life in direct contrast to that she was adopted into. That, plus the low esteem which adoption brings, might be factors. (Writing as an adopted person, but think you need specialist advice.)

Haven't read every post but I would agree with some others posters suggesting ASD or a learning difficulty.
Especially as she is adopted, and these things are highly inheritable, a lot of birth parents have ND or learning difficulties that are passed on to their children, and can be the cause of the adoption happening in the firstplace (I work in this area, so have some first hand knowledge of it)
It doesn't mean she is destined to fail, but she will need some support to help her make the best of herself, she may never achieve the things you originally had planned for her

No, but she will eventually. She knows she's safe with loving parents and that you'll be there to catch her if she falls. My brother was exactly like her and my parents did pick up the pieces often.
I'd put her in therapy and then tell her that if she's not going to take education seriously, she'll have to leave it to work full time and pay rent etc. Two years of this will hopefully wise her up.

I think you've come a long way in this thread OP.

From being in a somewhat naive state of bewildered exasperation (assuming that DD is just being 'ridiculous', 'lazy' and unappreciative of the 7-bedroom life you've worked so hard to give her)... to discovering the experience of other adoptive parents... to the wake-up call of @JennieTheZebra's professional opinion that DD needs serious MH help NOW... it's a lot for you to take on board all at once.

But your honesty and humility in accepting that this could be a deeper and bigger problem than you thought, is inspiring. Sounds like you'll approach it from a more informed perspective going forward. FWIW I think it's scandalous that adoptive parents are left to sink or swim with DC who've had difficult early childhoods, when the consequences can emerge many years later.

I also find it fascinating, there are studies showing nurture is important but doesn't over rule nature, nature gives you a set of parameters to work within, and that's it
I strongly suspect inherited personality traits are in play

I worked at maccies many years ago, and my 16 year old niece is part time there now. I can honestly tell you the Golden Arches grind is harder work than the job I got with my degree. They also, won’t hire someone with no GCSEs and no experience. The only place I’ve worked that will hire with no GCSEs or experience is Wetherspoons. Send her there for a part time job and I guarantee you by the end of her first breakfast shift or 6am stock up she will rethink her life plan. Alternatively, if she does take to it, Wetherspoons is one of the best places for career progression if you have no formal education. My pub manager from when I worked there had no highers and he was earning really really well, especially accounting for bonuses.

And these are her misconceptions that are proving so hard to dispel, because she knows these two girls who are getting their flats paid for by the state, but they are exceptional cases because they are young, known to social services and are unable to live at home due to neglect or abuse. I hope they are getting lots of support from the state because their circumstances are awful, being without a family so young, but that is not my DD's situation.

When she said the thing about letting her husband pay for everything I was really shocked as that is not what she sees at home or among our wider family and friends.

She is quite literally trying to make ensure she doesn't stand back and watch that happen.

I agree with this 100%. I suspect that the first job won't last long and it may take her a few to realise that the problem cannot always be that the manager is unreasonable.

Oh, it absolutely can be, but most NMW jobs involve working for an unreasonable manager and most people are glad to get something better once they have qualifications. Trouble is, she's not intending to get any.

When she said the thing about letting her husband pay for everything I was really shocked as that is not what she sees at home or among our wider family and friends.

It may be what she's seeing on TikTok, though. Look into the 'princess treatment" trend.

OP it seems like you are sidestepping the thing that a number of posters have brought up: the fact she is adopted is highly likely to be a part of what is going on for her here. You said you've had no support from post-adoption social workers since you adopted; THIS IS THE TIME TO GET HELP from those services again. Look into Virtual Schools for (Previously) Looked After children; get in touch with social services, contact adoption charities for signposting -- my bet is that this is bigger than just a teenager acting out.

I honestly don't know the answer to this, which is a dreadful answer from a parent. She presents as highly articulate and capable, but I am always surprised at how she panics when asked anything. Ask her what time it is and you can see her face go into panic mode.

School always reported that she was a below average student but predicted she would get some low passes. She didn't.

U's across the board. Literally nothing.

I will check with the college what she is studying now. The description when she signed up simply said that students that don't have English or Maths will study these subjects and resit, but I would support her doing
Functional levels if they taught the subjects in a way that works better for her.

Because there isn't much more about her adoption that I want to share on a public forum. That is her story, not mine.

Does she have tutors in Maths and English? She won't magically pass her GCSEs at college if she previously got Us without additional tutoring.

If you have noticed that she panics when anything based on intelligence is asked of her, then it seems that her articulacy is a form of masking her fear that she will fail to answer correctly. This supports not even trying on her last exam paper.
She wants to join those on benefits for a what she thinks will be a simpler, far less pressured life with no demands on her intelligence.

OP this may appear to be an impolite question, I’m sorry for that, but is she able to read and write properly ….does she enjoy reading and debating ? And what age level exactly are her numeracy skills.

I think she has been very adept at slipping right through the school net.