To allow my DD to follow her ridiculous "life plan"

[14HoursToSaveTheEarth]

This is not really an AIBU. I'm asking for advice/views. Long post so sorry.

My DD (16) is a number of things including confident and articulate. This may sound harsh but she is also in many ways immature and gullible, and very, very lazy. She left secondary school without a single GCSE of any grade and to be honest I think it is safe to say that this will continue and she will leave all education without any qualifications. Importantly, she does not care. She lives a privileged life in a seven bedroom house where she wants for nothing, but her attitude is that work is for fools and she plans to live off the government until she gets married and they look after her. You have no idea how long we have spent trying to dispel this fantasy and educate her as to how life will be in the real world if she doesn't change her attitude but she thinks we made our life choices (like going to university, gaining multiple degrees and working long hours at good jobs to provide her with this life) and she will make hers.

So she now has a "friend" who she met online via other friends who has had a hard time in life. She is also 16 but she cannot live at home due to her family circumstances, so he has a flat paid for by the local authority (according to DD). This friend has it sounds serious mental health issues, is a self-harmer and has attempted suicide several times, and recently had a miscarriage. I do not think it was her first pregnancy. The friend lives in East London. We live in the countryside several hours from London.

DD and her friend have now hatched a master plan whereby when they turn 18 DD will move in with her friend in London and they will both live off of benefits and never have to work, or at most they will get a job at MacDonalds.They think that this is them beating the system and they laugh at people planning to go to university and get jobs.

I could write this off as a teenage fantasy, which it probably is, but I constantly see threads on MN about young women who are living the life she describes and it makes me despair that this plan may become a reality. I don't even know what to do if we cannot talk her out of it. Do we drive her to London and try to be "supportive" (though I would not give her money other than in an emergency) in order to still be part of her life when it all goes wrong, or do we say "fine, make your choices but stand on your own two feet then" and see her sink possibly out of our lives forever?

DD also has two younger siblings who idolise her and I really worry about the message this sends to them, if she messages them about her amazing life in London sticking a finger up at everything we are trying to get them to work towards.

For full disclosure, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding, my DD was adopted at age three.

I know this will probably all come to nothing but it horrifies me when I hear her planning for a future that I know will be so bleak when for so many years we had such high hopes for her future. She has tried vaping and tried alcohol at a party but she hated both, so does not drink or smoke, has never tried drugs and is a virgin. However, she is incredibly stubborn and I have seen her turn viciously on people, including teachers, who do not allow her to have her own way (though thankfully this is not often), and so I can see her following through on this ridiculous plan out of sheer willfulness.

Before anyone asks, DH and I are fully on the same page on this issue. We are both equally horrified at her so-called plans but at a loss as to how to curtail them when she listens to everything we say and then simply says that she has her own mind and when she is 18 we cannot stop her. And she is right.

Beside this ridiculous plan and a general laziness with respect to anything concerning study, she is actually a pretty good kid most days (the moments of stubbornness I mentioned above are momentous but rare), so I have no reason to do anything to punish her. She is allowed to have friends and crazy ideas.

So please MN, your views:

Am I being UNREASONABLE and should let her spread her wings and move in with an unstable friend and live a life that horrifies me, putting her safety at risk in the hope that she sees sense and comes home, or

am I being REASONABLE and should do everything to prevent her from moving in with her friend when she is 18, even if that drives a wedge between us, hoping that she eventually understands this is for her benefit?

or should we do something else entirely?

agree the 'opting out' may. have been her hiding severe processing problems? intellectual/learning disabillity?

I would be wary of comparisons with other teens who got on with their life given her traumatic early life

I suspect you do need more specific advice given she was adopted. I know very little about the impact it can have, but common sense tells me it would be significant and she is at an age where tiny things can be significant, let alone this!
my gut would go with proper help, then let her get on with it while making sure she knows she always has a home etc. she sounds like a bright girl - she’ll figure it out by herself and there is more than one route into success.

Wow OP you sound wonderful, adopting three children in what I imagine were difficult circumstances. I’m just here to echo the other supportive posters; your daughter saying she found the test too hard - believe her. It completely sounds as if she is autistic - the younger than she is, only doing things she feels are correct, rigid thinking, generally a ‘good’ girl, seeking out her people and desperate to belong. Of course it could also be her trauma presentation which mirrors ASD. Either way, she needs significant help. Please:

Contact the council - totally believe they were useless but most councils now accept they have some responsibility towards adopted children and their families and should offer support, or mentoring scheme.
Seek professional therapy - adoption specific psychotherapy probably ideal.
Seek ND assessment/educational psychologist profiling. You need to quickly figure out how she learns as she might just be completely unable to ‘grip’ anything said in the classroom (ADHD) - to me it’s just a wall of information which makes me switch off. If trauma is causing her presentation, she will need different, but equal coping strategies.

I also echo the other comments around seeking home tutors rather than the reliance on college. I am assuming you have means - use them now to get her maths and English (only possible with a tutor it sounds- you tried classroom based last year - it didn’t work. College sounds like it will be a failure, in exactly the same way as school). You could frame it as beating the system; others need 5 x 7hr days to get the education, she can complete everything in 3 or 4 mornings. Find anything she will enjoy and send her - speak to the council about any group she can attend. My ds has tapped into the local autism support groups for teens and it has been transformative; found his people, who all come from supported positions (ie parents who have accepted they are struggling, but have similarly asked for support from the council rather than just leaving them to eg. drop out of life) rather than the described friends your dd has found.

And finally, ignore every comment about her privilege’ and kicking her out. She is not privileged she has had huge trauma which will be with her for life. She has to know that you will never abandon her and that your love is unconditional, and that she can always return to you. I don’t think she is similar to the other posters of needing to spread her wings for a few years; hers is feeding into the psychosis that life on benefits is suitable for her, and what she deserves. Once started I’m not sure she would return so all you can do is open her up to some local engagement to try and see if she would be happier staying with you, having a part time job, showing she would have more disposable cash and still a lot of freedom of how to live her life, and still beating the system! Once she’s gone it will be so hard for her to return.

that wouldn’t stop her going off the rails and possibly ending up in dangerous situations though would it. Buying her a flat outright that she didn’t have to work to pay the mortgage for is just as likely to result in her bumming around doing nothing and possibly getting into drugs and a bad crowd than moving in with this friend. Also, I could be a multi trillionaire and there’s no way I’d do this, of course I’d want my kids to work for their money. I’d help if they were desperate need but no, I wouldn’t want them to think life gets handed to them on a plate and maybe OP doesn’t either. I agree with the therapy comments though I think this goes a lot deeper than laziness

Have you had her assessed for learning difficulties/disability/nd? It sounds like your DD doesn't have the ability to achieve what you think she should and there may be a disability that leads to that. She sounds so vulnerable but I don't think you're meeting her where she is at and having realistic expectations. Some people will never achieve a degree and a professional job no matter how hard they try. If your DD had a learning disability, which sounds possible given she got no GCSEs, told you the work is too hard and you describe her as naive, she needs the right support and protection. Not too be left in London but also not to be expected to be able to complete degree level education. Maybe McDonald's is all she could achieve for work and if it is, there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think you'll talk her out of it. The more you try the harder she'll dig in. She's rapidly approaching legal adulthood and the option of you allowing anything will expire.

Perhaps you should take an interest. Humour her. Look at the wages and career opportunities at McDonalds for someone with her level of education. Have a look at the costs for a nice 2 bed apartment suitable for her and her friend. Add in council tax, utilities etc. How much deposit do they need to rent a flat? She'll need a job of some sort to raise that.

If she's going down the council flat route, have a look at the average waiting list time. If she's old enough she could even register now. With any look she'll get a retirement flat after waiting 40 years on the list.

This isn't to create a 'gotcha, Mum knows best' moment. These are the practical steps required to see if it's feasible. She needs to see for herself what her plans might look like in reality.

I've never lived in London or worked in McDonalds but I expect that combination will be a struggle financially. Hopes and dreams are always perfect, the reality often isn't.

I work in CAMHS, she needs therapy. You can go through ASGSF, CAMHS, or privately if you have the funds. She needs a proper assessment and as specialist therapist.

If you look privately I would only recommend choosing an ACP registered psychoanalytic psychotherapist. They are trained to doctoral level to work specifically with children and young people and have appropriate supervision, their own personal therapy and extensive experience in terms of clinical hours before qualifying and are employed in CAMHS clinics
https://childpsychotherapy.org.uk/resources-families/find-child-psychotherapist

She sounds like she has a lot of strong attributes - like you said, confident and articulate. We could turn the quality of stubbornness round and call it strong-minded!
It could be seen as positive that she doesn’t care about having lots of money. Many immature kids her age just say they want to be rich. So I wonder if you could tap into finding something positive in life that she really cares about, and channel her attributes into that.
(apologies if this post sounds a bit glib – I do totally take on board all your concerns - am just writing in a rush.)

I think this is really tricky, and you need to work out where your red lines are.
How far will you go to prevent her from moving to London if push comes to shove?

I agree with contacting Post Adoption Support to see if you can get some trauma informed therapy for her (if you think she would engage - would bribery help?)

You could give her an allowance equal to what you think she would have for discretionary spends if living off UC (after allowing for rent, bills, internet, food) so she can see what it is really like and attempt to teach her budgeting. But you would have to be strict re not 'treating her' to extras.

When one of mine (adopted) had immature plans we just did our best to slow her down until her maturity caught up a little bit.

Somehow you need to make home and trying more appealing than living away on benefits.

Is she scared to try because she thinks she will fail?
Are there hidden learning difficulties such as problems with executive functioning, processing, dyspraxia, dyslexia?

When you say 'resiting' maths & English, is this GCSE or Functional Skills? Did she really get Us for everything (in which case surely they would be doing functional skills) or did she get 2s and 3s?

Came here to say this. I think there may be long term issues stemming from the adoption that are affecting her behaviour now. I have known adopted children really struggle in senior school, even with huge support and found out recently that anger at poor parenting can be present in children under the age of two.
I really didn't know and OP, I think you need specialist help.

Living off benefits is very vague, unless she is able to claim disability then it is a pitiful amount and involves regular meetings with a work coach, reporting what you have been doing each week to find a job. Can you sit her down to do an online benefits calculator and compare income with bills?

This.

Just tell her about all the things that she won’t be able to do seeing as she’ll be mooching off the government on a pittance every month. Once she realises what she’ll be missing out on then maybe it won’t seem so glamorous anymore.

I would be focussing on why she thinks it’s all too hard and not relying on the assumption that if there was anything wrong, like dyslexia, school would’ve picked up on it.
To me it sounds like she’s been struggling at school for a long time, didn’t know how to explain it to adults so they would listen and so she “problem solved” a way out. It’s not a perfect or realistic solution, but it is a 16 year olds solution to not being able to keep up with others and not keep living with you and not be homeless. To me it sounds like there’s a lot of bravado covering up real fear- I would show her jobs she can do without GCSEs, I would explore with her options for accessing education when she’s older (she can go back at any point)- you want her to see that she can have a successful life even if academics feel to overwhelming (and possibly drop the: “you could be a tiler…but you need GCSEs for that” at this point it will just feel like, “so I can’t be a tiler”). Look into functional skills with college - they might be more manageable for her. She likely can do GCSEs and achieve more than life on benefits, but first you need to understand why she feels like she can’t (just listen to her, don’t problem solve or diagnose, just listen, tell her you really want to understand why it’s difficult) and then help her find a way through, don’t find it for her.
I also agree with others that she needs a therapist to speak with and help process things, especially if she’s not had one at any point in her life.

This sounds really tough. I would avoid trying to talk her out of this because she is overconfident and oppositional. She will just double down on her position. I definitely would not enable her plans, either, by giving her a lift to London or in any other way.

I get your frustration, because she has no idea about the reality of living of benefits, or how the real world works.This is obviously a fantasy which she is most likely too lazy to do anything to instigate. Best to say nothing more or you will just keep this nonsense going.by giving it air time.

This sounds really tough. I would avoid trying to talk her out of this because she is overconfident and oppositional. She will just double down on her position. I definitely would not enable her plans, either, by giving her a lift to London or in any other way.

I get your frustration, because she has no idea about the reality of living of benefits, or how the real world works.This is obviously a fantasy which she is most likely too lazy to do anything to instigate. Best to say nothing more or you will just keep this nonsense going.by giving it air time.

hi @14HoursToSaveTheEarth I would send her out into the working world right now and ask her to find somewhere to rent based on her McDonald’s salary.

This. I’ve also found out through my sister’s experience that undiagnosed foetal alcohol syndrome in adopted kids is a huge consideration and often hard to distinguish from ADHD as they have similar behaviors. Defo get specialist advice / support urgently.

This absolutely classic self esteem / petrified of failure / rejection sensitivity.

The messed up subconscious pattern is ‘if I didn’t try, then I didn’t fail but if I actually tried and it was t good enough then I’M not good enough”

She is absolutely terrified of failing so is actively deciding to avoid anything that could come with rejection or measurement.

She really really really needs therapy to address this. I’m guessing you’ll have a battle to get her to engage but this is where I would focus my energies. Make her phone dependent on attending regular sessions?? And yes, find a therapist who specialises in early trauma and adoption.

Did you not say to her, well explain to me then how it feels for you? Why was that the end of it?

Either you have a child too afraid of failing that needs some invetervention OR one so not arsed enough about it she needs consequences.

To actually show up to the exam I.e. not stay in bed refusing, but to cheekily write her name only and leave and then boast about a life on benefits to you seems disrespectful to me.

But you should know from parents evenings whether she is active in class, does homework? How shes setted? Her ability level? I struggle to believe that without additional needs shes struggles so much she couldnt get one qualification in one subject. Was this a surprise to you? And if so why?

You saying shes a good kid.. you mean shes a quiet one. But shes either being willfully lazy, entitled, defiant and disrespectful or shes struggling emotionally and doesnt know how to address it so stonewalling instead.

I dont know which but I do this requires action and engagement. There should be a response, at 18 she can do what she likes but again letting her do what she likes, then swooping in to save her wont help her be an adult. It will either increase bad behavoiur or ignore her emotional struggle. And one day, all being well, you wont be here to help her and when that happens (again a long time in future) she needs to be able to take care of herself.

I think youve a small window of opportunity where this could be addressed. But you need to talk to her again or get a psychologist to, or if you dont think its that then give her behaviour consequences.

Stop bankrolling her and give her a Nokia brick

Dont say this girl is 'cheekily' not completing the exam when you know nothing about her educational ability , processing problems, possible undiagnoses trauma/ ND etc - why do people post such ill informed nonsense.

She's adopted. How is this only a small part of your long explanation?

I think that @JennieTheZebra is absolutely right about therapy.
You cannot put this down to being 16 (and yes, lots of what you describe absolutely can be teenage behaviour) but the fact that she is adopted is absolutely where your focus needs to be.

For the majority of adopted people, the trauma that comes with it, whether remembered or not, needs to be addressed. I feel you are at a crossroads now and acting soon is vital as there is not going to be an overnight cure with therapy.

@14HoursToSaveTheEarth bless you, you sound like an amazing mum and this is so tricky.
I've worked with many adopted teens within education and without doubt this teenage angst is common. I'm sure you've researched attachment disorder and teens but these sorts of behaviours are quite typical and related to disrupted bonding in the early years.
If you can, I'd suggest keeping her close whilst not shooting down her plans. E.g. suggest that it might be better for Dd and her friend to get a flat together near to you when she's 18 as London is so expensive and neither would have family nearby to help out if needed.
Learning the real value of money is also a key step. Once there is an understanding of how many hours have to be worked to pay for x y z, reality is more likely to kick in. And an understanding of what benefits will actually buy particularly for a teenager. So any sort of part time job with a transfer of responsibility to her for some non essential spending might be a strategy too.
Good luck with it all. Hang in there, odds are she will come out the other side with all the support she clearly has. Teenage years really are the hardest.