To think, actually, hard work doesn’t pay off?

[AkaBaka]

I have had a typical millennial experience. Raised by a single mother in a council house and wanted better, so worked hard at school, went to university, graduated into a recession, built up a career, and bought a house. Am now scraping by in a similar sized house to my childhood home, raising my kids in a similar way as my mother did in terms of hobbies and lifestyle.

I have stepchildren who, much as I love them and they have many wonderful qualities, are lazy and unmotivated with little drive. I am forever telling them that hard work pays off.

But does it? For their generation, especially for non-academic kids like them, there seems little point in striving. Now I have kids of my own, I’m seeing the benefit of working fewer hours with less stress over a “successful career” that doesn’t even give me a very comfortable lifestyle.

AIBU to think hard work doesn’t pay off?

as the thread is quiet at the moment, basically you can only re invent the wheel so many times, plus as proven soon as a company brings a good product to market it either gets bought eg if its tech its google, apple etc

or if its a general item chances are other companies will have their own copies of it and selling it cheaper no doubt

so unless its something truly new and even then it will be copyed

covid proved we only need so many workers for x roles

overall yes having everyone in theory 99% employed would be good but the problem has always been who pays even now on the high street how many big retail chains have gone bust etc

capitalism as it is can only suceed with the govt topping up workers wages because without cheap labour the profits are not there

and in the end if you want a more pure pofit driven model you end up with a very big gap of the rich that own all major companies etc

so basically capitalism is not a suitable model to have the majority of people employed simple because if it were all businesses would be able to pay the true value of their employees etc

Perhaps the mantra should be changed to smart work and investing early pays off rather than just hard work. I don’t know what career you ended up in after uni? I was not brought up in a council house but we were never affluent and I went to a state school. I was one of the few that stayed on and did A levels. The 16 year old leavers called me a studie-wanker and a leftie because I went to uni.

I got a masters in computer science which at the time was just the beginning of the tech boom. I ve never seen myself as that smart as I went to a smaller university and then what was in those days a polytechnic to get the masters. But clearly I judged opportunities right when they presented themselves. Interestingly the polytechnic gave me the degree that boosted a 35 year career which resulted in me earning well over 6 figures with great benefits. In my case the choice of career and industry is why I’m successful financially. I grafted many long hours, juggled children and generally had to work very hard on how to manage my stress level. So no not easy but most work is tough whatever you do especially juggling kids. I also chose an industry where I could work from home aswell so got to see my kids a lot more than if I was commuting. That didn’t happen for the first 5 years though. Sacrificed were made so it wasn’t perfect at all.

I never had inherited wealth but parents helped with wedding and some odd bits here and there. But certainly not affluent themselves. However in my early twenties I started reading about investing and set up a personal equity plan as it was called in those days. Then it went to an ISA and I read as much as I could and started paying more attention to generating wealth through the stock market taking a long term view. I’ve recently in last ten years started to try and educate my somewhat unenthusiastic adult children as I fundamentally believe finance and investing should be taught at school. This is a major miss for many generations and especially the working classes. Not educating your kids about investing is why the poor stay poor and rich get richer in my view. If I could go back I’d invest even more and be really tight about costs in the early days.

Even just £25 a month into world equity index fund via a stocks and shares ISA is something. You can manage it via an app on your phone. It’s a no brainer. The cheapest platform is 212 Trading. Download MSE and listen / read all of Martin Lewis advice. There is so much good information out there now to be smarter with money and grow your own second income stream.

@Summertimesadnessishere problem is how much actually gets taught about investing in stocks and shares at school ?

Doesn't your partner work?? If you are both earning average incomes that's £5k p/m, not luxurious living, but comfortable.

And a great dollop of luck.

Personally, yes hard work has been worth it for me and everyone I know. We were lucky in the days of no fees university but it was a financial struggle and most of us worked as well to pay for it.

I studied hard, did all sorts of jobs, then trained in a career, DH did the same. In our late 20s we had a mortgage, disposable income, travelled a lot, were financially secure before DC. If we had just coasted then we wouldn't have been able to make this happen. Our first flat was overpriced and basic, we worked ft, then saved a deposit for first house.

These aspirations are still relevant today but col and the extra money used for technology we didn't have then make a difference.

Starting out in our careers we were all pretty poor compared to SOL today; second hand cars, a few outfits, one landlines, crummy accommodation etc. We were very happy, went to the pub a lot, lived a simple life really.

These days the reality of 'grafting' just to make ends meet and enough for a few pints is alien, this age of influencers, only fans, youtubers to earn a huge income. Why should we work hard when we could do these jobs mentality.

Living within your means isn't as prevalent, rather having the things you aspire and get into debt for is more convenient.

Rent prices are extortionate in many areas, so having a couple years of earnings to validate acceptability for a mortgage helps a lot more than a bank account showing debt payments for the latest I phone, beauty salon, new car repayments etc. Xxx

Of course starting out at the lowest band/payscale is just that, the starting point. Once you move up in career with the (harder to get i know) automatic pay increment then the hard work does pay off financially. Also the opportunities for specialising, promotion, experience.

Some jobs are indeed harder than others, that's what we choose and can do. Starting at the bottom of the payscale, the only way is to go up. Xx

Your stepchildren need to know they must be able to support themselves at the very least.

It depends on a lot of variables, my partner and I have a joint income of 75k a year, we've been on the property ladder for 22 years, we could have had bigger mortgages than we've had but chose not to, we never had kids so we do have the money to have 4 or 5 trips overseas every year. A family with 5 kids would burn through far more of that 75k than we would. And this is why if course people are questioning whether they really want kids these days because for many it will be constant financial struggle.

Its true that we're in a terrible position after 14 years of Tory rule, environmental factors like the global financial crash and covid, plus monumental strategic mistakes like Brexit.

This isn't unique to the UK, it's absolutely the same in all the Western/advanced societies. We are actually not the worst off, although our inequality is amongst the worst.

However, there is an element of entitlement in these moans. Our parents gen were shafted many times before things came good. They had ups and downs. The winter of discontent and sky rocketing interest rates. The decline of industry and manufacturing, then massive wave of home repossessions.

Every decade they were poorer than we are today, just that the things we are cherry picking like housing were cheaper. Because they were poorer.

I am not belittling the horrendous struggle that it is with kids, childcare costs, two full time jobs, whilst living in a tiny home. Its awful. It feels like you're working for nothing. But as childcare and housing costs tend to cone down as you get older, you get a bit more disposable income. It gets easier. Don't despair.

My DP and I never had kids and I'm.gjad because I would worry for their future because the job market is scary really! I've fought to build my health and safety career in male dominated industries, in 2022 I had a Safety & Training Coordinator role on a steel plant and I loved it, but sadly we got shut down last year, I did get a h&s admin role elsewhere but it was missold and not the job as described. I am looking for better options but it's getting to see what what employers are asking for / offering! They want much longer working hours these days, many want to spend most of your week on a motorway and living in hotels and not have a home life and the salaries and benefits packages are going backwards! As a 46yr old health and safety professional I don't want the salary I had as an office admin in my 20's, i don't want a job that give you minimum legal leave entitlement and then adds insult to I just by forcing to take a chunk of it for Xmas shutdowns! So many places seem to want you to live to work for very little benefit above lesser skilled and lesser demanding jobs. I feel like the time is coming to sign up to a health and safety company as a freelance trainer, I know you don't have same financial security but you aren't exploited and lied to either.

I’m your age. Similarly sector. The massificatiob of HE started with us under Thatcher. Largely due to women starting to go to university at similar rates to men (in the 70s the university population was still overwhelmingly male).

You said you bought your house - eventually your mortgage will be paid off and you may be in a better position than people paying rent in a council house.
You don't have to be academic to earn decent money - teachers may not be so well paid as many other non-academic jobs. I have heard that train drivers can earn more! (not saying they may not be academic too - but they have a choice).

He sounds like he’s got his head screwed on.

I’d also add that in my experience it’s not who you know but who you get to know - you need to have good people skills and know how to charm people.

That and being smart is what’s worked for me.

I’d also point out that people have hugely higher expectations today.

Our parents generation were content with either no or one car, one annual holiday in the UK etc. They didn’t buy coffees or expensive clothes or do trips to a show. And they didn’t feel poor because of that.

The real problem comes when your goalposts move. As soon as people earn more they buy a bigger house with a bigger mortgage, they start shopping more decadently, they get a bigger car, they go on more holidays.

Before they know it they’ve moved the goalposts and they no longer feel rich.

Mindset is everything.

I think your motto is worth sticking with you worked hard and now you can reduce your hours to take care of dc even people in low wage jobs work hard. Op your sc are in for a massive shock and there mum when you stop subsidising them and the uc stops when kids are out of education this is why your own mum had to start work as you got older. I think it depends on what you want from your life and sometimes big salaries are not as great as they were once especially with children. If the kids aren’t academics this doesn’t mean they can’t work hard but if they choose not to that’s not for you to resolve just make sure your own kids know working is important and show them they can achieve what they want but it takes graft not necessarily brains.

Hard work doesn’t mean university though. People can leave school or college and still work hard and often out earn people with a degree.

I have 3 degrees. 2 undergrads and a masters. Have switched from what many think is a decently paid part time job (teacher at the top of mainscale pay) to a minimum wage job. As I was only part time my now full time minimum wage job is a tiny bit more than what I was earning part time as a teacher but I needed to get out after 25 years and the last 12 as a single parent. I get UC top up however when I took the job which was about £7k a year more than I was on I obviously had a reduction in my UC top up, now pay student loans back and my actually earnings are pretty similar to what they were part time. This is what kept me part time for so long as when o started that job I could have increased my days to full time but I would have also incurred extra travel, childcare and stress. 4 days at the time would have had me break even with the part time plus tax credits at the time so felt it really wasn’t worth it for my own mental health and having a child with additional needs at the time who needed taking to a number of appointments whilst assessments were being carried out. Now my kids are both teens and secondary school and don’t need childcare and as much intranet looking after at home o decided to get back to full time despite being not much better off financially but getting out of a career I wanted to leave for years. My plan was to apply to a training doctorate to change careers to something with more earning potential however even with all my experience and degrees the competition for the training doctorate is so competitive that I had to try a plan b.

So I do work hard, full time as a single parent but it hasn’t paid off really. Inheritance has paid off a mortgage I was about to struggle with when interests rates soared a few years ago.

However some of it seems to be pot luck and circumstance. I married and the eventually divorced someone trying to chase a career of their dreams but who basically has bailiffs after home. Whereas my sibling married someone with a fantastic career and earning potential meaning that she chooses to work or not as she doesn’t need to for money but does for mental health. She has chosen to work and has worked hard however her chance meeting of her future husband with massive earning potential has put her on a totally different earning bracket to what I could ever imagine.

But then I worked hard at school and aligned my guts out to get pretty much the same GCSE results as my sibling got with putting in absolutely no work!!

But back to my original point. Working hard doesn’t equate to going to university. Look t all those successful rich business people who have worked hard from poor back grounds and no qualifications to being millionaires.

This is the best post I have ever read on here. I'm so happy there are still some sensible people on Mumsnet.
Your benefits comment was especially poignant. Hatred and ignorance are the new bywords it seems. Thank you.

I also took the traditional educational route … worked hard in a career with long hours and high stress. When I returned to work following my maternity leave when I had DD1 - I was 41. And nothing felt the same. I found out I was pregnant with DD2 the day before I returned. The time I worked until I went back onto maternity leave was horrible. I missed DD1 all the time. I was always tired. So thinly stretched. When DD2 arrived I opted for a longer career break and I never returned to my job. I became self employed. Work waaaay less hours for much more money and I decide my work/life balance. My DDs are teens now. I home educated from the offset and worked around that. Sometimes we have to think outside the box. I had no support from family and am also a single parent.

It’s not always about hard work. Plenty of people work incredibly hard and sadly still get paid peanuts. Sometimes it’s more about connections, personality traits, family background, financial background, or a whole list of other factors.

I think hard work probably does often pay off, but I have noticed that with my daughters peer group, it seems, those who chose to go straight out to work , rather than going to university , are a lot better off financially. Having been working for almost 20 years, having left school at 16, they seem to have risen quickly up the property ladder owning houses around the 700k mark , where as the ones who went to did under grad and post graduate degrees are mainly on their starter property if they’re lucky.
It seems that the 5 or 6 years of university takes more than that time to make up that deficit in earnings. It might just be the case with my daughter’s peer group though. Has anyone else found that ?

Looking at people around me the ones who didn't go to uni were "adults" faster and had children sooner and they did buy their hosues sooner. However they are not more well except the ones who had a position in their parents business or are from a wealthy family that could invest to start their own business. It depends so much on what you studied if you can catch up after uni. In my social group the ones who left school are doing fine but they haven't had a massive head start.

I used to find this true but now the biggest factor seems to be how early a young person buys a property. Some of my friend’s DC didn’t go to uni and are now very early 30’s and in their second purchased property. One young adult is 30, has two young DC and lives in a four bedroom, 3 bathroom house in South East England.

That means ‘how early their grandparents died’ doesn’t it?

I completely feel this post.
I started out on a council estate. But my Dad started doing quite well and so got a mortgage on the family home. By age 10 my parents separated and that's when my mother had to get a job that paid more than a little bit of pocket money. But she was never career minded or motivated and soon met someone else who covered all her major costs (mortgage, bills, multiple holidays abroad every year just for them 2, major car expenses, clothes etc). My Dad ended up with a really good job, moved overseas, and has since lived a life that's completely chalk and cheese to how my life started. So I've been exposed to 2 very different lifestyles and attitudes.
My Dad didn't go to Uni but did go to grammar school and that gave him a step up in life for sure. He was very hard working but definitely had a sprinkling of luck thrown into the mix. Some of his great lifestyle is also down to sheer bloody-mindedness. I lived with him for a couple of years as a teen, but he virtually abandoned his family (incl me) after moving. If he'd been around and/or given any financial support, he wouldn't necessarily have the wealth he has.
My mother, in contrast, isn't very smart or savvy, and was happy playing more of a housewife role (though she wasn't a very good mother). She not only did well through the divorce, but also ended up with someone who paid for everything for her. She now lives with him in a modest house but in a lovely location in an affluent area and they both have nice cars and a very good quality of life.
In further contrast, I went to Uni in London and from that point stayed away from home, looked after myself financially and every other which way because my Dad wasn't around and my mother didn't want me around, didn't have kids because I feared not having enough to give them, and worked bloody hard. Things were on the up until I was unwell and had to have surgery, and after that felt life was too short to work hard forever, so spent 4 years overseas barely surviving in poorly paid jobs, came back to the UK, struggled to get into a new career, several years later things finally improved and now I'm in an ok paid job but definitely earning a lot less than I should be, and I have a mortgage on a house that's probably a tad smaller than the council house I started out in. I have an old car. However, some of this is lifestyle choice as I love to travel and spend several thousand each year on big trips. Given I don't have kids though, and given where my parents are in life, it does feel like a kick in the teeth.
By comparison, nearly every friend I've ever had has had a very different set of circumstances. And that has been due to family support (financially, emotionally etc), and family and/or friends aiding with employment opportunities. In most instances, I'd say they didn't work as hard or any harder than I.
And my sister, the (first born) golden child, didn't go to Uni, did study for a professional qualification whilst she worked, but could afford a mortgage very early on in her career on 12k, was loaned some of the deposit by my mother, and always had men dropping at her feet, which I'm convinced enabled her to go further than me up the ladder. Though even she hit a ceiling and wasn't really that senior (but was the main earner), but she has somehow managed to retire at 51, with a really lovely family home, nice cars, a teen son, has always taken several expensive family hols per year, goes out every weekend and does things you pay for including concerts and theatre etc, dines out at least every weekend, and doesn't want for anything. She even travelled the world for about 18 months when she was in her early 20s and I've never understood how she managed it to be honest. She says she's made her luck, but I was always the more studious with the better grades. So I simply don't agree. And she had the audacity of once telling me I couldn't have everything in life when I said to her I'd at least like to have a small house and the ability to go on a nice holiday once a year.
So in my minds eye, life is a lottery to be honest. You can be reasonably well educated and the hardest working but not the most attractive, and end up with not much more than (or even less than) someone without an education who lives in a council funded house but has spent 20+ years working their way up from a junior role to a reasonably well paid job. Or you can simply be attractive, have no interest whatsoever in education or working hard on anything other than your aesthetics and live the life of luxury.
In this day and age, if I had kids, I'd have them.living at home and would advise them to do an apprenticeship as it teaches them skills whilst giving them pocket money. I now work with individuals younger than me who had this privilege and they're nowhere near as hard working and they get away with it, yet they earn more than me.
I try to just be thankful for what I have, but I'm not gonna lie, it's impossible not to feel resentment at times.