To think, actually, hard work doesn’t pay off?

[AkaBaka]

I have had a typical millennial experience. Raised by a single mother in a council house and wanted better, so worked hard at school, went to university, graduated into a recession, built up a career, and bought a house. Am now scraping by in a similar sized house to my childhood home, raising my kids in a similar way as my mother did in terms of hobbies and lifestyle.

I have stepchildren who, much as I love them and they have many wonderful qualities, are lazy and unmotivated with little drive. I am forever telling them that hard work pays off.

But does it? For their generation, especially for non-academic kids like them, there seems little point in striving. Now I have kids of my own, I’m seeing the benefit of working fewer hours with less stress over a “successful career” that doesn’t even give me a very comfortable lifestyle.

AIBU to think hard work doesn’t pay off?

It paid off for me. I had a very similar upbringing to you and I managed to raise myself up slightly. No, I don't have a lavish lifestyle but I've paid off a mortgage on a small working-class house, and am comfortable in a way I didn't think I would be based on my family background. We're not talking lavish. I don't have a private pension but I can manage on less than full-time work as an older person. I achieved this through a lot of hard work in a shortage area.

I think in the current economic climate I'm OK. I've done better than my parents so I'm happy.

Hard work pays if you choose a profession that pays. I'm an accountant. I've worked really hard, long hours, stress, for many years. I have a comfortable lifestyle. If I'd have worked that hard as a teacher, a nurse, a care worker, or a cleaner, I would not have a comfortable lifestyle.

Your DSC need to choose sensible professions. A degree is a good start but not for everyone.

I feel a bit like your stance is hard work equals university which equals doing everything right.

My children are year 11 and 13. The non academic children still need to work hard and can still doing everything right, so I think you are framing it wrong.

A good number of my eldest friends went on to do level 2 and level 3 apprentiships straight after gcse. They generally had to have 4 or 5 GCSEs including English and Maths at a 4, which was hard for them. And they had to show enthusiasm and demonstrate skills etc in the apprentiship areas (IT, mechanics, construction,) so most had been working hard at the weekends, getting good references, bring polite, sociable, developing soft skills. They are all doing really well for themselves. One is earning 45k at 19. A lazy unmotivated person isnt getting those jobs and progressing in that way.

I think you are right that aiming for university isnt the best path for everyone and that being academic maybe doesnt have the premium it used to have as we have less demand for those skills right now. But I dont think lazy unmotivated people are progressing in non academic paths either

Well no, she didn’t work hard. She didn’t work at all until I was 12 (and was enabled by benefits) then worked part-time. She started full time work when I was about 16. My childhood (supported by benefits) was very similar to my kids’ (supported by our salaries).

It’s a different time now. I thought if I worked harder than my mother, my life would be better. That’s not what’s happened.

I think for some people hard work is not optional.
It does pay off because the alternative is that you’d literally be in the gutter
And I have seen people who are in the gutter and believe me it’s not an alternative you’d be promoting to anybody

True. Absolutely true. But still very depressing.

There's always a bit of an implication here that people in poorly paid jobs aren't working hard. I'm sure a lot of people in minimum wage physical jobs are working a hell of a lot harder than a lot of people in well-paid office-based "careers'.

It's late stage capitalism.

I’m not sure what would be the most sensible careers for them in today’s world.

I'm a milennial brought up in a middle class household; when my parents were together we went on multiple holidays abroad. My dad had left school at 14 and my mum at 16, both went to work for a telecoms company and earned lovely big salaries (yes they worked hard). I went to a good grammar school, a red brick uni and got myself a master's degree.

Now I'm a single mum working 32 hours per week struggling to save anything - my brother earns more than I do and he couldn't be arsed at school and didn't do a degree; it's because of his profession (IT). He never has anything to do at work and just sits around watching YouTube or playing computer games! He's also a homeowner aged 26.

Thankfully my mum retired early with lots of savings and helps me and DD out a lot. I don't know how I'd do it without her and I'm eternally grateful. I'm hoping when DD is in school I'll be able to start saving as childcare costs are a killer.

When I was at school we were told very explicitly if we didn’t get A levels and go to uni we would end up “flipping burgers in macdonalds”. Ironically, the people who did end up doing these sorts of jobs are better off because they managed to buy a house before the big credit crunch hit. Those of us still in education ended up over educated, with huge loans, no house and working in public sector or charitable (only places with jobs) and salaries which didn’t keep pace with cost of living. Minimum wage has kept pace much better than ‘middle incomes’.

There often isn't that much of a difference in lifestyle between working a minimum wage job and not working at all.

I was watching the Nuremberg trial program on the BBC last night and this is gonna sound a bit leftfield to say the least, But one of the aspects of it that’s often overlooked because of the other horrendous atrocities is the work camps where people did everything that we do times 10 only they didn’t get a house or pension at the end of it.
And that was a lot of people’s lives pre-1939 whether we were at war or not.
People worked their skin off their bones in exchange for being allowed to survive and eat, If they were lucky they stayed in the same rooms as their family packed into the rafters
Having ones own home of any description whether you’re renting it or buying it is a very new phenomenon and you don’t have to look far back to see the grim alternative

Also what is hard work? Is getting an education and going to work 9-5 considered hard work? Or is it something where you work 60h weeks? Or something where you literally get your hands dirty?

Yes also the people who took jobs working in McDonald's and working in supermarkets were also able to quickly progress. I know a few who were able to move into management and other roles in companies because of this experience without needing a degree or doing a graduate scheme so do not have student loan debt to repay either.

My FIL used to say that you needed a "slice of luck" which I think is very true.So many people work hard, and see little rewards .Others seem to be in the right place at the right time sort of thing.I think younger people are getting disillusioned now .they see friends struggling, or their parents and dont see the point of a min wage job .Older generations have had a good innings .Going to Uni and getting good jobs when their backgrounds were quite modest.We had a massive growth for a long time and its easy to think we would do as well or even better..Everything has a plateau and there seems to be a downward trend ATM.

I am worried for SC.

Their mum and stepdad have had significant financial support from both sides and also get benefits. Both of them work part-time in various short-term self-employed roles and have a lifestyle which is probably a bit nicer than ours.

We’ve had some financial support from DH’s parents, and a leg-up because I managed to buy a flat in my 20s which paid our house deposit. He will inherit substantially later on. I am also the highest earner out of the four of us, by some way. We earn just too much to get benefits, except childcare support, and pay out a lot to SC’s mum (not a criticism, just a fact).

SC are quite open that they don’t want to work full-time, they’d ideally not work at all, and they don’t want to work hard. I’m really worried that they will have nowhere near the level of inherited wealth that their parents had, and I can’t see the benefits system sustaining everyone forever. But university isn’t a route to success anymore either.

I think you need to be quite strategic in your choices, or lucky, or ruthless, or just enjoy/ be good at the right types of work to do really well.

I know what you mean. I did it all right on paper as well (I’m a bit older than you though) and I’m the least well off in my family.

I think that if you were on benefits now you wouldn't be able to afford the recreational things you did as a child also there would be a high probability that you wouldn't be in a council house or flat - you may be in a hotel.

I think your relationship breakdown will have 'cost' you in many ways.

Choosing & staying with the right partner who is ambitious & motivated & works in a sector that pays well is probably the biggest wealth building decision a person can make. Obviously, you need to look at a partner as a whole - because there are some rich dickheads out there who absolutely need to be avoided

And where children are involved, there isn’t much of a difference between low paid job and benefits, or higher paid job. Except stress and seeing your kids less. So I do see why people aren’t bothering to work, or work much, now.

I didn’t have a relationship breakdown, my kids are DH’s. He did have a relationship breakdown (his wife left for another man) though and you’re right that SC are a huge expense that I didn’t fully comprehend when we got together.

SC’s mum’s household does very well on a blend of part-time work, benefits and family financial support and that’s the model SC seem to want to emulate… But I don’t think it’s going to be possible for them.

Agreed I think way tax works if you are earning a wage and have kids difference between small income/ large income is much less than you'd think all the way up to about £125k. (There is some difference and better pensions, security give you access to mortgages better housing, better retirement so it's not nothing). But it does feel like the uplift we were promised isn't there.

What is depressing is the degree as a visa to be able to get any job, which I think that vice chancellor is right about. It means you have to do uni anyway just to participate in most job markets. Even though it's a cost not a premium now.

This exactly. Now in my 50s I see lots of friends who's parents owned homes and have passed away, leaving my friends with many thousands of pounds. And grandchildren with flat deposits. That's not hard work, that's luck your parents bought a house.
We had no inheritance from either side and have always worked hard in low paying jobs, but the difference in our lifestyle and many friends is wider than ever now.

So, suppose I agree to an extent op.
But my kids work hard and are doing really well.

I figured this out when I’ve finally had a child (at 36) because I needed the promotion to pay for £20k a year nursery fees I left having a child until too late! Only to then become an ultimate sandwich because my widowed Mum is now very ill. So not only do I not get grandparent support, I also need to travel 2 hours to help coordinate the care of my severely disabled Mum I’ve needed to go part time which wasn’t supported by my corporate employer so they have made me redundant. The message from my work was that if you don’t have the ‘free’ grandparent support so you can do your job and long hours as you did prior to kids, then you can’t work here! You can be a women working in this industry if you can do the hours of a traditional man’s role.

Prior to being made redundant and juggling it all, everyone looked at me and asked why was I working (for the career I have given so much up to achieve). I realised if I left my husband and didn’t work I’d get double the amount from the state than when I was working part time in my quite well paid job! Thing is I actually love my husband and want my child to live with her father, but they’re serious alarm bells here on the state of the country! It’s simply not sustainable

If hard work always led to success, the donkey would own the farm.