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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think infant circumcision is wrong but also that a total ban on it will not work and is not the most effective way to tackle it?

732 replies

Carla786 · 04/01/2026 00:49

On the recent threads after the tragic death of the baby boy who died from circumcision performed by a non medical professional, there have been a lot of calls for a total ban on here.
Now, I think infant circumcision is very wrong. But in practice I do not think a ban will work.
Most cultural circumcisions are performed by medically trained people. Backstreet ones need to be cracked down on with the full force of the law, but they are not typical.
Second, circumcision is key in Islam. However, while most agree it’s either compulsory or strongly recommended, age requirements are not as stringent in mandating someone has to be a minor. I think there is some hope sensitive campaigning within the community could maybe make more families consider leaving it until their son is at least maybe an older adolescent with more ability to choose.
Judaism – circumcision is central to Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox Haredi ofc, and more liberal Masorti and Reform. It is extremely unlikely that any law or external pressure would stop these practices, because brit milah is a covenantal obligation tied to Jewish identity. Attempting a blanket ban would likely trigger defensiveness, fear, maybe underground circumcisions and probably emigration of at least some to Israel or elsewhere, rather than protect children.
Focusing on sterile procedures, trained practitioners, and medical supervision would be more likely to significantly reduce risk. Jews have experienced persecution for circumcision in the past (e.g., Hellenistic bans and European restrictions), so any attempt to criminalise it today can feel existential. This is only heightened by the terrible upsurge in anti Semitism recently.

I agree with sentiments behind calling for a ban - I just thing measures short of a ban are more likely to work.

OP posts:
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sabababa · 08/01/2026 02:25

TheignT · 07/01/2026 18:34

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj2r8x2k4yo

British baby dead. Tell us w.hy that is ok.

It's not OK.

However, in case you don't know the terminology, neonatal = performed at birth. This is when the risk of complications is the lowest.

The baby was already 6 months old and the medical guidance is that for babies beyond neonatal period, circumcision should be done in hospital under GA.

As I said previously, currently it's unregulated in the UK which is a threat and danger to babies since basically anyone can perform a male circumcision anywhere without any training. Circumcision should be a choice based on the current evdience but it does need regulating.

sabababa · 08/01/2026 02:29

Carla786 · 08/01/2026 02:23

Thank you. I requested for a reply focusing on 'in general', not my personal conversion, but these are good points. However, if you wish to discuss my personal conversion further, please PM.

I will reply to your comments in a moment.

Edited

I think your personal beliefs about circumcision are front and centre here. How you will reconcile this to joining a community where this is a central commandment is your own business and up to you if you want to take it further. I'm not religious so I really don't care but I happen to know these communities very well.

Carla786 · 08/01/2026 02:35

sabababa · 08/01/2026 02:29

I think your personal beliefs about circumcision are front and centre here. How you will reconcile this to joining a community where this is a central commandment is your own business and up to you if you want to take it further. I'm not religious so I really don't care but I happen to know these communities very well.

Why don't you PM me, as I have suggested before? As I have repeatedly said, I did not start this thread to discuss my personal conversion.

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Carla786 · 08/01/2026 02:37

sabababa · 08/01/2026 02:25

It's not OK.

However, in case you don't know the terminology, neonatal = performed at birth. This is when the risk of complications is the lowest.

The baby was already 6 months old and the medical guidance is that for babies beyond neonatal period, circumcision should be done in hospital under GA.

As I said previously, currently it's unregulated in the UK which is a threat and danger to babies since basically anyone can perform a male circumcision anywhere without any training. Circumcision should be a choice based on the current evdience but it does need regulating.

Edited

There's no evidence of who the circumciser was. Did they have any medical training?

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samG76 · 08/01/2026 08:48

Carla786 - we are slightly to the right of Masorti, but not much. Kids at uni and school (not only Jewish ones). A lot of people we know are moving or preparing to move because of the prevailing political situation. Any sort of ban of this type would be the last straw, though as I’ve said it’s obviously never going to happen. I would support compulsory training for mohelim - my sons’ circs were done by doctors at our house.

TheignT · 08/01/2026 18:10

sabababa · 08/01/2026 02:25

It's not OK.

However, in case you don't know the terminology, neonatal = performed at birth. This is when the risk of complications is the lowest.

The baby was already 6 months old and the medical guidance is that for babies beyond neonatal period, circumcision should be done in hospital under GA.

As I said previously, currently it's unregulated in the UK which is a threat and danger to babies since basically anyone can perform a male circumcision anywhere without any training. Circumcision should be a choice based on the current evdience but it does need regulating.

Edited

It should be performed for medical need.

Carla786 · 08/01/2026 20:35

samG76 · 08/01/2026 08:48

Carla786 - we are slightly to the right of Masorti, but not much. Kids at uni and school (not only Jewish ones). A lot of people we know are moving or preparing to move because of the prevailing political situation. Any sort of ban of this type would be the last straw, though as I’ve said it’s obviously never going to happen. I would support compulsory training for mohelim - my sons’ circs were done by doctors at our house.

I see - I'm really sorry so many are planning to move due to rising anti Semitism now. It's disgusting this is happening in the UK.

People definitely seem to be underestimating the effects of a ban...

Medically trained brit milahs (and Muslim circumcisions) done in hospitals should be the reforms brought in.

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sabababa · 09/01/2026 03:37

TheignT · 08/01/2026 18:10

It should be performed for medical need.

Well, the American Academy of Pediatricians position paper is that it is parental choice after a full review of the benefits and the potential risks. Of course with the proviso that it is done safely and by a trained professional.
And since the largest pediatrcian body is OK with it as an elective procedure, so am I.

Carla786 · 09/01/2026 04:53

sabababa · 09/01/2026 03:37

Well, the American Academy of Pediatricians position paper is that it is parental choice after a full review of the benefits and the potential risks. Of course with the proviso that it is done safely and by a trained professional.
And since the largest pediatrcian body is OK with it as an elective procedure, so am I.

Some argue that US doctors have a vested interest in saying it's OK.

But otoh I think if there were common serious complications it would be obvious by now.

The issue is more whether there are bad effects on sexual pleasure, whether pain during healing is very bad, and most fundamentally, whether a parent should have the right to make such a decision for an infant in this day and age.

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sabababa · 09/01/2026 05:01

Carla786 · 09/01/2026 04:53

Some argue that US doctors have a vested interest in saying it's OK.

But otoh I think if there were common serious complications it would be obvious by now.

The issue is more whether there are bad effects on sexual pleasure, whether pain during healing is very bad, and most fundamentally, whether a parent should have the right to make such a decision for an infant in this day and age.

Yeah, they say that about vaccination too. But I'm more inclined to believe the trained professionals who have objectively assessed the evidence.

Yes, of course there are many things to consider which I'm sure parents are doing. At the end of the day,as with many things, you ask yourself if the decision you've made for your child as a baby is one he or she will thank you for as an adult and it's not always easy.

Anyway, if we allow people not to vaccinate their kids against diseases which can kill and harm them (and others), then we must certainly allow them to chose to circumcise. A crime of omission is just as bad as a crime of commission (not saying it's a crime of course, just making a point that if you think circumcision is bad then not vaccinating is even worse in terms of outcomes so you should start with that)

Parsleyandthyme · 09/01/2026 05:25

A ban could be described as anti -Semitic so won’t happen imv

Carla786 · 09/01/2026 05:28

sabababa · 09/01/2026 05:01

Yeah, they say that about vaccination too. But I'm more inclined to believe the trained professionals who have objectively assessed the evidence.

Yes, of course there are many things to consider which I'm sure parents are doing. At the end of the day,as with many things, you ask yourself if the decision you've made for your child as a baby is one he or she will thank you for as an adult and it's not always easy.

Anyway, if we allow people not to vaccinate their kids against diseases which can kill and harm them (and others), then we must certainly allow them to chose to circumcise. A crime of omission is just as bad as a crime of commission (not saying it's a crime of course, just making a point that if you think circumcision is bad then not vaccinating is even worse in terms of outcomes so you should start with that)

I see what you mean.. I agree there are odd ideas in the US about the medical profession & it can get overly conspiratorial. The system they have there probably encourages people to be over suspicious.

Vaccinations a tricky one...I suppose the best argument is that not vaccinating can be reversed when the child is old enough to choose.

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Carla786 · 09/01/2026 05:32

Re the larger debate, I think an important point is that circumcision bans were passed by much more frightening regimes that Her Majesty's Government : The Soviet Union, Nazi Germany etc But this did not seem to deter Jewish parents from circumcising in secret, even at the risk of terrible punishment.

If sentiment re the need to circumcise due to covenant is still high (and probably is, especially, but not just, among the Haredi),then threat of prison etc will probably not be effective at changing minds. I suspect it would probably reduce the effectiveness of education programs about danger of circumcision by non-medical professionals etc

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sabababa · 09/01/2026 06:52

Parsleyandthyme · 09/01/2026 05:25

A ban could be described as anti -Semitic so won’t happen imv

Oh what an interesting perspective. Would you care to elaborate more? Why would you say anti semitic rather than anti-Muslim given that Muslims also circumcise? And would you say if it could be described as anti-muslim it wouldn't happen either? Or do you think Jews hold such special power?

sabababa · 09/01/2026 06:54

Carla786 · 09/01/2026 05:28

I see what you mean.. I agree there are odd ideas in the US about the medical profession & it can get overly conspiratorial. The system they have there probably encourages people to be over suspicious.

Vaccinations a tricky one...I suppose the best argument is that not vaccinating can be reversed when the child is old enough to choose.

Not for childhood diseases - many of which get worse as the child gets older. And certainly not if the child has had said disease and been damaged or, even worse, died. Which is higher than any risk from safe circumcision by a factor so high that it probably can't even be estimated from the data.

Parsleyandthyme · 09/01/2026 07:31

sabababa · 09/01/2026 06:52

Oh what an interesting perspective. Would you care to elaborate more? Why would you say anti semitic rather than anti-Muslim given that Muslims also circumcise? And would you say if it could be described as anti-muslim it wouldn't happen either? Or do you think Jews hold such special power?

I do think Jews have special power, as you phrase it, due to what happened to them in the II World War

sabababa · 09/01/2026 07:34

Parsleyandthyme · 09/01/2026 07:31

I do think Jews have special power, as you phrase it, due to what happened to them in the II World War

So you mean there won't be a ban due to holocaust guilt? Fair enough

Parsleyandthyme · 09/01/2026 07:45

Holocaust guilt -not really, that was one thing, I didn’t want to write screeds, more that they have been persecuted throughout history so no one wants to be perceived as doing that now

Edit - just my personal take on the issue

TheignT · 09/01/2026 12:13

sabababa · 09/01/2026 03:37

Well, the American Academy of Pediatricians position paper is that it is parental choice after a full review of the benefits and the potential risks. Of course with the proviso that it is done safely and by a trained professional.
And since the largest pediatrcian body is OK with it as an elective procedure, so am I.

That doesn't mean they think it is a good thing. It is legal and the parents choice but the fact that they mention risks indicates there are risks and they know that. Why would a rational loving adult subject a baby to a painful unnecessary procedure that has lifelong consequences?

Oh I know so he looks like his dad who was also subjected to the same abuse.

sabababa · 09/01/2026 13:31

TheignT · 09/01/2026 12:13

That doesn't mean they think it is a good thing. It is legal and the parents choice but the fact that they mention risks indicates there are risks and they know that. Why would a rational loving adult subject a baby to a painful unnecessary procedure that has lifelong consequences?

Oh I know so he looks like his dad who was also subjected to the same abuse.

Wrong again. They said it has benefits. And that having it done as an infant is when it has the lowest chance of complications. They actually say the benefits outweigh the risk but not sufficiently to recommend it as routine.

And perhaps a little more understanding and reading about why people choose to circumcise would be helpful to you. You dont have to agree with it but I can assure you it is not because of some vain and shallow reason that a boy will look like his dad. I know many loving families with wonderful and devoted parents who have chosen to circumcise their sons and none of them did it so the boy's penis will look like his dad

And also perhaps stop gaslighting grown men that they were abused or mutilated as babies when they say they weren't. Theyre more than capable of making that call themselves even if theyre mostly not white.

TheignT · 09/01/2026 15:33

I'm not gaslighting my husband who feels it was a violation. Maybe you shouldn't be insisting he feels fine about it when he doesn't.

There is no advantage to having it done it you don't need it done unless parents think teaching their son to wash is a tougher option.

Carla786 · 09/01/2026 22:41

Parsleyandthyme · 09/01/2026 07:31

I do think Jews have special power, as you phrase it, due to what happened to them in the II World War

People wouldn't want to offend or upset practising Muslims either, especially when the gain of banning is not really clear.

Moreover, I sadly suspect groups like Isis would target UK if there were a circumcision ban.

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Carla786 · 09/01/2026 22:48

The Stamford Hill article I linked upthread mentioned Vanessa Engel's 2008 BBC documentaries on Jewish people. Her first episode was about the Hasidic Haredis, I'll link it here.

They are one of the major reasons I think a ban will be counterproductive as it will just make engagement to try and broaden the younger generations' access to secular society even harder.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00c50tc/jews-1-the-prisoner

Jews - 1. The Prisoner

The story of ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jew Samuel Leibowitz, who has multiple convictions for drug-smuggling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00c50tc/jews-1-the-prisoner

OP posts:
sabababa · 10/01/2026 10:43

TheignT · 09/01/2026 15:33

I'm not gaslighting my husband who feels it was a violation. Maybe you shouldn't be insisting he feels fine about it when he doesn't.

There is no advantage to having it done it you don't need it done unless parents think teaching their son to wash is a tougher option.

Well the american academy of pediatrics who has done a full review feels differently to you and they are the experts.

And I haven't made any sweeping statement over how adult men should feel. Its a shame your parents in law decided to circumcise their sons so he looked like his dad and because they couldn't be bothered to teach him to clean - those are indeed very shallow reasons to make such an important choice

Soupsavior · 10/01/2026 12:51

sabababa · 10/01/2026 10:43

Well the american academy of pediatrics who has done a full review feels differently to you and they are the experts.

And I haven't made any sweeping statement over how adult men should feel. Its a shame your parents in law decided to circumcise their sons so he looked like his dad and because they couldn't be bothered to teach him to clean - those are indeed very shallow reasons to make such an important choice

But we are in the UK, so why is the opinion of American pediatricians who, evidently, circumcise a large portion of babies for profit relevant to us? Our laws and healthcare requirements differ vastly to the US in lots of ways, I don't get why you're holding them as some kind of gold standard except that they "agree" with you that parents should be allowed to mutilate their own children's genitals if they wish to. I'm much more inclined to listen to British doctors and the consensus that there is no medical justification for circumcising healthy babies, the concerns raised by urologists about referrals to treat circumcision complications particularly when hardly any of them are part of this practice to understand what happened and their concerns about how those with medical registration are performing procedures and care that fall well below the standards required for them to be GMC registered. They have a much more nuanced opinion especially regarding how or if this could at all be regulated and how that would work within our medical ethical regulations than a society of anyone who works within the American for profit system where a massive % of babies are mutilated for no medical or even religious reasons.