To think infant circumcision is wrong but also that a total ban on it will not work and is not the most effective way to tackle it?

[Carla786]

On the recent threads after the tragic death of the baby boy who died from circumcision performed by a non medical professional, there have been a lot of calls for a total ban on here.
Now, I think infant circumcision is very wrong. But in practice I do not think a ban will work.
Most cultural circumcisions are performed by medically trained people. Backstreet ones need to be cracked down on with the full force of the law, but they are not typical.
Second, circumcision is key in Islam. However, while most agree it’s either compulsory or strongly recommended, age requirements are not as stringent in mandating someone has to be a minor. I think there is some hope sensitive campaigning within the community could maybe make more families consider leaving it until their son is at least maybe an older adolescent with more ability to choose.
Judaism – circumcision is central to Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox Haredi ofc, and more liberal Masorti and Reform. It is extremely unlikely that any law or external pressure would stop these practices, because brit milah is a covenantal obligation tied to Jewish identity. Attempting a blanket ban would likely trigger defensiveness, fear, maybe underground circumcisions and probably emigration of at least some to Israel or elsewhere, rather than protect children.
Focusing on sterile procedures, trained practitioners, and medical supervision would be more likely to significantly reduce risk. Jews have experienced persecution for circumcision in the past (e.g., Hellenistic bans and European restrictions), so any attempt to criminalise it today can feel existential. This is only heightened by the terrible upsurge in anti Semitism recently.

I agree with sentiments behind calling for a ban - I just thing measures short of a ban are more likely to work.

They slice healthy tissue off the penisis of their newborns. Tissue that is not just 'a flap of skin' but adhered to the glans like your fingernail is adhered to your nail bed and has to ripped away from it. So yes they do actually, no matter how sensitive or defensive you feel about it.

I know of no neonatal deaths when performed by a qualified mohel or medical professional. But you know different so please let me know what the number is.

Are you from the Muslim, Jewish or African communities?
Are these the communities demanding change?

Who is 'they'?

And why would I be sensitive or defensive exactly? I have no skin in the game (pun unintentional)

Oh right. Now Jewish babies are your babies and you will protect them from their evil abusive parents.

The guardian article is brilliant. What shines through is how well the family sticks together despite ideological differences.

FWIW, I've been to dozens of circs, and never never seen the weird custom referred to above. I have also never heard whooping or hollering at any time - there tends to be a nervous silence until the deed is done and the dressings put on.

We would likely leave the country if any ban took effect (you might say good riddance, but we employ a lot of people and pay a lot of tax), but of course no-one is going to make it illegal - I can't think of a more obvious way to lose votes. I would support some sort of register of practitioners, though.

I totally agree that you can't convert Masorti if you aren't prepared to do a brit.

They are British babies however much you want to other the. They are entitled to the same protection as any British baby.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj2r8x2k4yo

British baby dead. Tell us w.hy that is ok.

I am no expert but a quick look at the literature shows neonatal deaths are higher in populations that circumcise.

large scale studies have shown a link between circumcision and increased risk of SIDS..

figures suggest there are over 100 babies annually in the US die from direct complications of circumcision.

I’m not “announcing opposition to Judaism” — I’m engaging honestly with a real ethical tension that many Jews, including Masorti Jews, grapple with. Masorti Judaism holds that halacha is binding and subject to interpretation and moral reasoning over time. Wrestling with difficult commandments is not a rejection of the religion; it’s part of how Masorti Judaism functions.

Attending a brit milah ceremony does not require uncritical endorsement of the practice, just as attending other rituals doesn’t mean one has no personal ethical reflections about them.

Conversion isn’t about suspending questioning or pre-committing to hypothetical future decisions about children I don’t have.

I would not refuse to attend brit milahs, nor would I lecture people not to do it. Your assumptions are unwarranted.

I am not converting Orthodox, and I’ve never said I intend to , boycott britot, or “educate the community” about what it should do. That’s simply not what I’m talking about.

Masorti Judaism allows room for moral struggle and private disagreement. My conversion is a personal religious matter which this thread is not intended for. If you wish to discuss further, please DM.

Pain relief MUST be mandated during the operation.

That doesn't, however, solve the problem of the pain during the healing process...

Just trying to unwatch

I agree : it's wonderful that despite the clear differences over many issues, the close family bonds were preserved.

Re the oral suction thing , my understanding is that's only some Haredi who do it..so a minority. Maybe the chanting is then also a Haredi thing (if it actually happens)?

However, the Haredi are the fastest growing UK Jewish group, projected to maybe be 50% of UK Jews in some decades. I hope this will not make the suction thing more common..

May I ask what branch of Judaism you follow? Do you think many others you know would also leave if it were banned?

The care & prison demands are very wrong.

I was reading Vicky Pryce's 2013 book Prisonomics recently. She wrote very well on the devastating effect on children of their mother being in prison, especially if thus means being taken into care. The government is ofc now trying to reduce the number of women in prison, where possible.

Normally people on Mumsnet are aware of these facts, but on this thread people are ignoring the devastating consequences if you start jailing Jewish (& Muslim) mothers purely for circumcision (this does not mean dangerous backstreet ones should not be prosecuted)

Anyone who participates in, or condones, infant circumcision, whether they are part of a religious community or not. It's utterly barbaric, and no amount of tradition makes that statement any less true.

Re this, I'll add that I think it fits into a broader pattern of Haredi science denial, at least in some circles. Apparently young earth creationism and geocentrism (thinking earth revolves around the sun) are fairly common.

This is why there needs to be mandated proper education in addition to whatever religious education Haredi kids receive : esp boys, who are more restricted.

That's good re your friends. Can I ask if these mums belong to more liberal strands of their religions? Do their husbands agree - it often seems to be men who push for it to be done (ofc not always)

It's with conservative & obviously fundamentalist strands like Haredi that it'll be most difficult, esp as Haredi & probably conservative Muslims are the growing branches of these faiths, not the more liberal branches, due to high retention and high fertility. As I said upthread, Haredi may be half of UK Jews in not that many decades. At the moment they are one quarter.

sabababa, I agree that many men do not seem to be demanding change. Otoh, they do not know how they would feel if it had not happened. Most do not seem severely affected, but does that mean they should have no choice?

Re your earlier comment, 'Why not choose a religion you actually believe in?', may I ask you a general question (not about my personal conversion).

Do you believe that if a Jewish person follows all the mitvot except infant circumcision, they do not really believe in or practice the religion? Pps upthread have shown some clearly are questioning it.

The Torah does not specify what the procedure should entail : I think it is significant that it was originally much less extensive.

(You were earlier dismissive of the Talmud, which is where the procedure is actually described, including the oral suction which we now know does not help infection.)

Re the confinement- this is difficult, as by that criteria, a lot non Hasidic or Haredi but halachically observant Jews are confined in a cult-like way if they keep kosher, do not drive on Shabbat, use an eruv etc, and some observant Jews are able to live without an eruv, although it makes things harder. I appreciate what you're saying : people are raised in this highly restrictive Ultra Orthodox way of life, and have little choice. I think it's that element & the restriction on mixing with outsiders which make Hasidic Judaism more cultlike.

Trafficking has a specific legal meaning involving force, deception or exploitation. Arranged relocation for study or marriage within a community — even one with strong social pressure — does not meet the legal threshold for prosecution. But it is a disturbing example of the high control Hasidic (and other Haredi) can exercise.
I suppose the only way we can remedy that is to mandate secular education so young adults have more knowledge of other options?

Chasidic schools aren’t general Jewish schools — they’re sect-specific faith schools designed to transmit a particular way of life. Some Catholic, Muslim, Orthodox Jewish schools also mandate parents follow the faith as well as pupils. So this isn't cultist in itself...but it still very harmful for someone leaving to have to upend their life like that...

Evidence please and causality. You are saying that neonatal deaths are higher in populations that circumcise at birth?

Kind of weird then that Israel has an infant mortality rate of 2.7 deaths per 100 births vs the UK which has an infant mortality rate of 3.8.

And I had a quick look at that ridiculous "paper" you are basing your figure of 100 babies dying - not even a paper, a "short communication" in that unheard of journal "HYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies" by an author who is a anti-circumcision activist. I mean come on, do your your basic due diligence. You don't need to be an expert to read that "communication" (i.e not even a peer reviewed article) and realise it's garbage.

On the other hand, interesting that the American Academy of Pediatrics still support male circumcison.
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/130/3/585/30235/Circumcision-Policy-Statement?autologincheck=redirected
These people ARE experts and they actually say benefits outweigh the risks but not enough to routinely recommend it. Hence parental choice where there are also religious and cultural factors too.

There are different streams of Judaism and you can choose the one that best aligns with your beliefs.

I had an atheist friend who was also Jewish. He went to an orthodox synagogue, very active and engaged in the community, kept shabbat and festivals, kept kosher. He also didn't believe in any of it. I asked him why he didn't go to a reform synagogue and he said that he loved the community, he got pleasure from what he did and he didn't feel the same at reform - and that since he didn't believe in anything, it was all hypocritical anyway.

But I do think it's different when you're born Jewish. Whatn you convert, you are voluntarily taking on the mitzvot and identifying with the stream to which you're converting. Given that you disapprove of circumcision, I really can't see how you would celebrate a brit in your new community, isn't this totally hypocritical since you thnk the parents are mutilating their sons? Clearly, it's important enoguh for you to come on to Mumsnet and state that you would like to see the practice stopped. To me it's mind boggling to step up and say that you want to join a religion in which this is such a central practice - and to choose a stream of it that is conservative. There really is no debate in masorti judaism over male circumcision and you are deluding yourself if you think your opinions on this, especially as a convert who has just voluntarily agreed to follow all the mitzvot, will be welcome in the community.

Social shunning and fear of spiritual loss are very real for some people in Hasidic communities, and that harm shouldn’t be minimised. But exclusivist theology and high exit costs exist in many religions without making them cults.

The meaningful question isn’t “does this belief system make strong claims?” but “are people trapped by force, deception, or violence?”

well, except the American Academy of Pediatricians doesn't agree with you. But hey ho, you know best about "them"

Thank you. I requested for a reply focusing on 'in general', not my personal conversion, but these are good points. However, if you wish to discuss my personal conversion further, please PM.

I will reply to your comments in a moment.