To not understand DD's thoughts about me

[Enlesio]

Anyone out there who understands child psychology?
11 year old DD.
Most gorgeous girl. Really, she is a wonderful, kind, beautiful and gentle little soul.
She shows me and demonstrates to me every day how much she loves me. I am 100% confident that we have a secure and loving relationship. She is very attached to me and always wants to be with me.
Yet, she is having intrusive thoughts about me that are really distressing her. She'll start crying and won't tell me what's wrong, but eventually after encouraging her to talk to me about why she's crying, she'll say she's having thoughts that say "I've got a bad mummy; my mummy isn't a good mummy; I want a different, better mummy; my mummy isn't as good as Evie's/Abigail's/Poppy's mummy." But these thoughts really distressing her and she gets extremely upset by them and tells them to go away but they won't stop. Then she gets petrified that she's upset me by having these thoughts and repeatedly says "Have I upset you by telling you that? Please don't believe it mummy, these are not my thoughts, they're lies, they're the very opposite to what I think". Sometimes she gets so distressed by these thoughts that she starts visibly trembling whilst crying silently with tears spilling down her cheeks. She gets lots of thoughts about how I look, too. She's forever telling me I look lovely, and she'll say "I think you look beautiful mummy". Then she gets thoughts that say "I think mummy's ugly/fat/dresses horribly/isn't beautiful" and then gets distressed by these thoughts and says they're the opposite to what is true. She feels bad, guilty, ashamed for having these thoughts and insists they're not what she actually thinks.
For context, she is suffering extremely high levels of anxiety over the past year and isn't sleeping well.
These intrusive thoughts only happen at bedtime as her anxiety rises.
What are they? Why are they so negative about me when I know full well she adores me? What exactly is going on?
Im finding it very complex and confusing and I don't know how to help her. It's quite hard to remain neutral when your DD is saying "My thoughts are telling me youre ugly, you're fat, you look terrible, your not as good at being a mummy as Molly's mummy, I wish I had a different mummy." Then crying in a truly heartbroken way and clinging to me begging for forgiveness and saying "Okease believe me mummy i do NOT think any of these things! These thoughts are coming into my head but I hatd them and they're the total opposite of what i really believe!"
Shes asking me how to make them ho away, but I don't know.
I completely out of my depth here.
Laying next to her as we speak after 2 hours of comforting and cuddling her through her anxiety and tears, and listening to her intrusive very negative thoughts about me, we've got white noise playing to help her settle to sleep. Yet she's had a really lovely, happy day, just like she always does.
I just feel like we are in a mess every evening and I don't know what to do.
This all started out of the blue in February.
Prior to that she fell asleep like a dream, slept through, no bedtime issues, no anxiety, no intrusive thoughts, no white noise needed.
Now it's like this every evening and the pair of us are both exhausted by it.
Can anyone explain why she's having such awful thoughts about me, when she clearly demonstrates every day how much she loves me?
And what do I do?

OP I don’t think that not getting therapy is an option here. I think you need to find the money for this. Sell jewellery, ask family to contribute, do a go fund me, get some extra work etc. Do the referral to CAHMS, go to the GP and try and scrape some money together.

That seems wildly and unnecessarily expensive. I've had therapy for years and usually pay £50 per session, and I know of a few others who pay £75 per hour.

Just a suggestion - if you're in the South, and those prices for your area are ridiculously high, could you consider finding a remote therapist in the North, where distance doesn't matter, and having online sessions for a much more affordable price?

Lots of therapy is remote these days. I know of a few centres where the initial (free) call is like a "triage" with a senior therapist, who will assign you a therapist from their team based on your needs and their specialities.
Someone experienced in OCD and intrusive thoughts will be key.

I'd definitely recommend looking at private therapy elsewhere if the £50-£75 per session price point is a bit more achievable. That price you've been quoted seems extortionate.

To start with I've not read the full thread!

But from what I've read -
Do you get DLA? You say your daughter has SEN, DLA is worth considering and could be used to pay for counselling.

You need to tell the GP everything, and keep updating them. My GP made us jump through hoops of contacting various orgs and services - in that case do what's asked then update them on outcomes. You do need to keep pushing unfortunately.

Get the school on board. All DSs schools have been excellent, including writing support letters for CAMHS referrals. They may also be able to signpost to relevant services.

You can definitely get cheaper counselling then you've seen, we pay £60/session, the sessions are fortnightly. Honestly, we couldn't do it without the DLA. We found the counsellor through www.counselling-directory.org.uk

That sounds so hard for you both. 💐 As previous posters have said, it could be a form of OCD. Another thing that can cause intrusive thoughts and OCD like symptoms is PANS/PANDAS, which comes on suddenly after an infection such as strep or a virus. The way it started out of the blue does fit with PANS/PANDAS. Do you remember if she she had any infections just before it started? Even something that seemed like just a mild cold?

To me it sound like she's conflicted, her thoughts don't always agree with what she thinks she should think.

I think she needs to know that it's OK to not think you are perfect. I would tell her you're not a perfect mummy and it's OK to not think you are perfect, but you try your best. And that you are not particularly beautiful or fantastically well dressed or have a perfect figure, but it's fine not to be perfect and fine for her not to think you are perfect. You are just mummy being the best mummy you can.

Sometimes it's not about always making our kids happy but about supporting them when they aren't.

She sounds lovely, you sound lovely. Approach GP seek help for her. Poor wee soul.

Hi op, do go to your GP and if the wait for camhs is ages see if there are any local charities they can refer you to. My own daughter was referred to Arthur Ellis for some sessions around general anxiety, I think you can also self refer arthurellismhs.com/

Please make a gp appointment to discuss a referral to CAHMS asap as they triage and children are seen if priority. For example an autism assessment will be a longer waiting list then possible OCD or severe anxiety or depression. I would also speak to her school or your local authority early help service and see if there is any mental health early intervention through the school or family hub, some NHS trusts do early intervention through a service that goes into schools, and some do CBT and counselling through the GP for those that don’t meet the threshold for CAMHS.

https://www.kooth.com

https://www.youngminds.org.uk/young-person/mental-health-conditions/ocd

these are some online resources that might help but definitely look for local resources on your local authority website.

Yes this. Do have a read and see if it resonates. Try full dose of ibruprofen for three days and see if the situation improves. If it does that is indicative of inflammation causing the problem and you can research other ways of reducing inflammation.

Hi OP, reading your post was like reading about my own daughter. She is also 11 and in year 6. Over the last 6 months her intrusive thoughts got worse and worse, and they were almost all about me being ugly or a bad mama. She would become so distressed by these thoughts and feel the need to tell me about them over and over again. She wasn’t able to sleep and was always worried. About a month ago I felt I’d reached the limit of my capabilities to help her on her own, as none of my strategies were working. I did a couple of things:

I found some videos online for children about intrusive thoughts and how to cope with them. We watched them together and now talk about some of the strategies using the language from the videos. I also spoke to her teacher who she trusts (I asked her first if this was OK) and her teacher has started having regular chats with her and also organised for the SENCO lead to speak to her. Finally, I spoke to the GP who referred us to CAMHS. They actually deproritised us as she wasn’t showing any signs of self-harm or violence towards others, but they sent a list of organisations we could self-refer to, which I’m planning on doing next.

The main thing that has helped so far I think is her knowing that that happens to other kids as well, and she is not bad or abnormal, she’s just struggling to process her thoughts. One of the videos we watched had this helpful animation of thoughts going through a sieve in our brain - we think them and then they’re gone - but for some people the sieve gets blocked and the thoughts stay around. We also name it now - this an intrusive thought, it’s not who I am, it’s not what I actually think. Naming it seems to give it less power, and also showing her that I’m taking this seriously seems to have made her feel less alone. It’s so hard though and I’ve had real moments where I felt completely helpless in the face of her distress. Good luck with whatever you decide to do next, you sound like a brilliant mum and completely in her corner, which is what she needs.

These intrusive thoughts only happen at bedtime as her anxiety rises.

This bit jumped out at me OP. I may be talking rubbish here but hear me out.

When my DD1 was 11 ish she was having some friendship issues and she always started to worry and stress at bedtime, as people do when they are over tired. After a while we just started to say "Nope not discussing this now, time for sleep, happy to talk about it tomorrow". The friendship issues and the bedtime anxiety resolved themselves after a few months.

My DD2 is now 11. For the past year or two, she's started to get anxious at bedtime, especially when she's over tired. She'll say things like "I'm really scared" and "I'm scared all the time, all day". Because I know she's tired I'm a bit mean and shut it down and say "You feel scared because you're tired. Not discussing it now. I'm very happy to talk about it tomorrow." She never does bring it up the next day - probably because she's a generally happy kid and is not actually scared in the daytime!

If it's keeping her awake past her bedtime then the lack of sleep might be making it worse as well.

So my suggestion would be to minimise it a bit and explain what it is - it's intrusive thoughts and they're very common when people are tired or feeling a bit anxious but they are nothing to worry about. And that it's time to go to sleep. Sometimes I sit on the landing to reassure DD that I'm there but I refuse to be drawn into conversation, as it won't go anywhere positive when they are over tired. Good luck OP.

You need to take her to a doctor right away. How have you not done this already in the 11 months she's been like this?? God almighty.

It sounds like the onset of OCD, which can be life ruining enough when out of control, but it could also be something really dangerous like schizophrenia or something physically wrong in her brain that needs addressing immediately.

CAMHS can take ages. If you can afford it, OP, get her a private therapist as soon as you can.

I wonder if there are any low cost services you could access, either for yourself or for her?

Agree that her worry about her thoughts sounds like OCD. I wonder what is going on with her friendships as well.

In the meantime, I would reassure her that it's quite normal to have both pro and anti Mum thoughts.

I think she needs cbt.

Like a lot of other posters I think it sounds like OCD, the good news is that she feels close and comfortable enough to tell you about them. I have never had a formal diagnosis of OCD but at times in my life (from childhood) I've had some shocking intrusive thoughts which after doing research, I've come to terms with. I can hear them and then sweep them away as their not 'real' just a pesky thought that pops into my head. I'd speak to her GP and go from there. I don't think these thoughts are uncommon, but they can be very upsetting.

That quote for therapy seems vastly out of the norm. I would advise seeking other quotes.

My DD9 had play therapy with a specialist ND play therapist for much of last year and that was £58 per session in the SE (which I had thought was expensive compared to the non-ND PT which was £42 per session!).

My DD sounds similar - is diagnosed AuDHD and in the past few months or so has been having intrusive thoughts - she also has a ritual of after telling me them, has to say "I'm embarrassed to tell you and sorry" X3 every single time. She has also started using baby wipes to wipe her hands and mouth extensively.

We went to GP a few months ago (there are other issues too, including EBSA), got referred to CAMHS and had a triage call fairly soon after. As a result, they've put her on the waiting list, but have not heard anything since.

One thing I've said to her is that it's not real and it's just her brain trying to trick her and she does say this to me when she tells me, that her brain is "being stupid again".

Does her school have a play therapist/counsellor? Can you see if she can be put on the waiting list?

We are also currently appealing an EHCP refusal to issue and I have requested from the tribunal that they direct the LA to seek advice from a psychologist.

We ended up removing my child from school for 6 months to assist with recovery as it was clear the move to secondary school tipped her over the edge. She was suffering pretty badly leading up to the start of year 6 but year 7 was a whole other level. She was displaying extremely distressing behaviours in the classroom too.

We then fought for a special school (thankfully she'd got her EHCP in year 6). She's academically highly able but she needed to be in a smaller environment with adults that really understood her.

BTW I was told by an expert that OCD can be very hormone related. Mine and my girl's started aged 9. It got particularly bad for me between the ages of 15-18. It carried on at a lower level through my 20's with occasional escalation at times of stress.

Then it suddenly stopped after I had my first baby. Apparently it's not that unusual according to this expert. In my head, I didn't have time to let that inner voice bother me.as I was too busy focusing on my baby.

Nowadays, it occasionally pops up but I ignore it because I've learnt from helping my girl that I need to do the opposite of what it's asking and to focus my mind on something else to make it go away. And it does.

My girl was very, very unwell with it but we gently pushed her to leave the house every day as our greatest fear was that she'd never leave the house again.

I felt that it was the right thing to do for her. Even if it was only a trip in the car to a drive through McDonald's for some fries. We focused on get special interest to encourage her out. She likes birds so we went to areas where there were lots of birds and fed them. Even if it was only for 10 minutes of fresh air, we felt like we needed her to do so.

We actually had a disability buggy for older kids at the time and we even pushed her around the park in that. She was covered under the hood with a blanket so that she could hide away if she chose to but it just meant there was a purpose to her life outside of OCD.

I look back at pictures of her from those days and it's clear that she was so unwell. Greasy hair, thin from stopping eating for a while and I look at her now and see how far we've all come.

It was the toughest battle but, like us, you need to fight and you will come out the other side.

GP and SEN/Pastoral team at school (primary or secondary?)

My daughter's anxiety first manifested in Intrusive thoughts. Primary did some low level support in Y6 and secondary deeper stuff in Y8 (age appropriate CBT delivered by a mental health person from county) and pastoral support.

Both GP and School will be free - worth trying that first and not immediately jumping to disaster stations.

Our county offers free parent resources for dealing with teen mental health worth investigating their websites for that too

Or it can be really quick - my dd was seen with a couple of weeks.

GP first OP and you’ll be referred. Once you have an idea of waiting times in your area you can make decision about other options then.